Posted on 10/18/2001 10:02:07 PM PDT by super175
You need to study Taiwan's history a bit more.
It was a province of China for all of 10 years.
Chinese people only moved there 300 years ago or so.
It was given to Japan.
If the same criteria applied to other nations, we and Austrlia and Canada would be part of the UK.
Your ideas are fine, but the problem is, no one in China believes them and no one in Taiwan believes them or cares about them.
There is no one (except maybe some Chinese dissidents in exile) thinking or hoping for a unification of Taiwan with China based on freedom and democracy and Dr Sun's principles.
Korea and Vietnam were more a part of China than Taiwan ever was, yet no one is talking about them reunifying.
This ia all about the KMT escaping to taiwan, not about Taiwan.
If they'd escaped and taken over Korea the chiComs today would be screaming Korea is part of Taiwan.
Let me add some more:
3. The Korean War in which China and the US fought each other.
4. The Taiwan issue.
5. The US recognition of ROC as the legitimate government representing China for 30 years by excluding PRC from the world community, including the UN.
........
>>He then went on to say that the Revolution of 1949 was merely an extension of the 1911 Revolution, basically ‘in order to finish the job’. To him, the 1911 revolution was “incomplete”.
Mao also said the goals of the 1949 revolution were anti-imperialism, anti-feudalism, and national independence and freedom.
>>The original aims of Dr. Sun, and the Revolution of 1911 are still the very key to solving many of China's problems...90 years later...
Over a week ago Jiang claimed the CCP is the only loyal follower of Sun's vision. Looks like Jiang is going to transform the CCP into a nationalist party.
>>The CCP was extremely brutal in how they came to power and how they have maintained power.
The CCP executed many landlords during the land reform. However, the land reform is one of Sun's major policies which the KMT failed to carry out. This was the major reason why the KMT lost power in the mainland.
>>The CCP and its spies, like Tang, were responsible for the deaths at NanJing.
You may have to give some facts to show the CCP's involvement.
>>There are more than 1,000 languages in China.
Not "languages", but "dialects".
>>Also don't forget, those 'jian-ti' characters were created by the Communists.
The simplified Chinese characters started in the New Culture movement aftre 1911 revolution. Many liberal intellectuals advocated the use of simplified Chinese characters as a way to westernize China. The KMT did accepted the suggestion because the feudalistic conservatives were so strong at the time. Radical liberals even wanted to completely abandon Chinese characters by using PinYin with Latin letters.
>>During the Cultural Revolution they destroyed so much of the various Chinese heritages.
It is interesting that the radical liberals in China also wanted to destroy ALL Chinese heritages through FULL westernization.
>>1. We will, no questions asked remove our military threat from Taiwan.
China said it will remove the military along the coast facing Taiwan if Taiwan recognizes One China. But China will never exclude the use of force in solving the Taiwan problem.
>>2. At the same time, declare publicly a 10 or 20 year plan to create a Republic and institute democratic reforms, to which they hope Taiwan will participate. (both in the reforms, as well as the Republic)
I don't think the CPP will publicly declare a timetable for the political reform because it's too risky. The CPP will reform itself in order to stay in power, not to lose power. So there will be political reform in China, but not too fast to still keep the CCP a ruling party. It's the nature of human beings. No one wants to lose power.
>>Taiwan would not mind (I don't think) being in an "alliance" with the Mainland. It is the idea that they will be 'ruled by the CCP' that has everyone upset.
Not exactly. People have wants, right? Being the king of a small state is much better than being a minister of a big nation. Do you want to be a middle manager of big Co. or the boss of a small business? Many people prefer the latter. It's also the nature of human beings.
>>An alliance, as far as Taiwan is concerned, would mean that they get to send a regular representative to the Mainland for an official position. Everything else stays the same. Taiwan still has elections, a President, self determination, their own identity, everything.
The major issues here are the defence and diplomacy. This is what ONE country really cares about. Say, if China had a war against or were invaeded by other countries , would the mainland an Taiwan fight the common enemies?
>>To the Chinese, any place (or people) that have ever been conquered to be under the rule of Chinese monarchs, or part of their kingdom(s), were part of "zhong guo" or 'part of the emperor's kingdom', whichever "zhong guo" they were talking about.
Right. Many Chinese are now talking about Outer Mongolia and Central Asia. Historically those areas used to be part of China. Because China thinks Ginges Khan was one of the CHINESE emperors the historic Chinese territory streched to the central Europe.
First of all, I don't believe Chinese are 90% Hans. Whenever race is brought up people with mixed races are screwed and in China that is a tremendous number.
Do you see Hawaii and Alaska got screwed? If not then Tibet and XinJiang will not be screwed. Let's replace CCP with a real republic goverment and discuss Tibet's independence later.
Tibets are Buddhists and they don't really want the political independence because they already have their spiritual independence. They want freedom to control their own destiny which is their religion.
I've been asking the question over and over again and got no answer back from any person supports CCP: Why is there no freedom of religion in China? Freedom of religion has been in China for more than 2000 years.
I don't know this "reality".
Many if not most people of Taiwan are not against being part of China because it is drummed in to their head from an early age.
Only those Taiwanese KMT members are brainwashed and DPP members are normal? Under the same education system and background? Be real!
The only solution is de jure recognition of Taiwan.
Please tell this to people in MaTsu and KinMan and also KeJiaZen. Do you respect them or screw them?
Taiwan never really has been part of China and whether it is part of a free China or not is not very important.
Yeah right! Go visit cemetaries in Taiwan and read those headstones then tell me about it.
Taiwan was not part of China when the Qing dynasty defeated the Ming (in fact Chinese people didn't even have any presence as a society there and never had).
Go visit cemetaries in Taiwan.
You too!
It was a province of China for all of 10 years.
Are you sure? Go study the history.
Chinese people only moved there 300 years ago or so.
White people moved to America ?? years ago. So you are saying Taiwan belongs to those native Taiwaneses but there are so many different tribes with totally different languages and cultures. Who owns Taiwan? Obvious not people speak MinNan dialect.
You are really brainwashed by some twisted information.
The people of Taiwan IMO can work with "China" and co-exists, or any other number of scenarios, but the CCP is wholly unfit for anything. There is no way the CCP should be governing (at least in its current form). I am not saying that 100% of the people IN the CCP are unqualified for anything, but rather that Mainland needs a new system, new ideals, a new political system, and a new place in the world. Everyone keeps talking about 'building a world to suit China'. This won't happen. China has to change to fit into the world, not the other way around.
That is the requirement.
If I was making foreign policy, I will
1. Abandon all 3 communiques with the PRC.
2. Have Korea, Taiwan, Japan, India, and the US all band together into mutual defense.
3. I would try to open up India's economy for manufacturing so that they can compete with China's cheap labor.
4. Build NMD, including put it over Taiwan.
5. Taiwan would get 100% support from the US for international recognition and independence. If China tries to attack, America will intervene-- by law. If China tries to get too bold, nuclear force will be used against the PLA, and if that does not work, against Beijing city.
6. Taiwan can enter into a geographically inspired alliance with the Mainland and still be independent to some sorts.
7. I will one way or another downgrade relations with the CCP so that they are on 100% equal footing with Taiwan. I will either recognize Taiwan, or downgrade Beijing. Permanently. That is until this problem is solved in a manner of equality.
8. Ensure that America will not attack the Mainland unless the Mainland attacks.
9. On a day to day basis I will not seek to harm China, and will cooperate in those areas that we can, that will help China reform enough to fit into the world. The world is not wrong. China is wrong.
I won't just talk about it either. I will bar Chinese products from the US or expel the CCP's 'ambassador', put year long sanctions on various Chinese companies, or something. I would be extremely rude and mean to them. The rule will be, 'being nice begets being nice. Being mean begets being mean'. Then I will enforce that doctrine, but let Beijing choose which they want. It will be an eye for an eye.
If they can be mean, so can the USA.
You are trying my patience.
The Qing designated Taiwan as a province in 1885 or 1887. It was given to Japan in 1895. Learn some addition.
It was settled in the mid 1600's in response to the Ming defeat. It took the Qing a few decades to subdue it. It became a "prefecture" of Fujian province.
It was only a province in its own right from 1885 to 1895 -- ten years.
There's not much reason to argue with you because I am accurate in my facts.
Your problem is you do not understand what I am saying does not preclude Taiwan from being part of any future China, if they want.
It, though, does address history accurately, and does address real solutions to the problem of China and their troublemaking.
You are more trouble for Taiwan now than the ChiComs.
Taiwan is not part of what is known as and spoken of as China -- the People's Republic of China. Anyone saying otherwise has mental problems.
If you want to say Taiwan is part of China because it is part of the ROC, then fine.
As far as Kinmen and Matzu, the people there can make their own choice. So far they like ROC/Taiwan.
But they might opt for a Hong Kong type situation -- I'd think they were crazy, but it is their choice.
I really do not think you understand your own positions because they are so self contradictory.
Maybe if you hold your breath and turn blue it will be true.
There is no country named China. There is PRC. There is ROC.
There is not China.
When people say China, they mean the PRC.
What do you think it means?
LOL. Why not ask the original inhabitants (Native Am's) of Alaska and Hawaii? They might give you a different spin on whether or not they got 'screwed.' The same applies to Tibet.
As for Tibetans not wanting political independence because they have 'religious independence' is ridiculous. Why, then, is Tibet pretty much one large PLA base? Why do they have to put down riots every five years or so? Why are 100,000+ Tibetans now in exile?
There can be no religious freedom without political freedom, especially in Tibet where the two are so intertwined (for good or bad...)
As fot Tibet being part of some republic, why should they? China's claim on Tibet is about as historically based as their claim on Outer Mongolia and Korea!
That is sheer and utter BS. You are making some post facto big deal about being with the Russians.
In 1933 the US recognized the USSR...of course they were asked not to spread communist propaganda in the USA. 1933 was 7 years after Sun's death. Communism was still in its infancy back in the 1920s. Mussolini founded his party in 1919. The CCP in China was not even (fully) organized until 1922.
Sun joined with the Soviets because of AMERICA. America would not help anyone, so the choice was either the Soviets, or no more revolution. America's foreign policy at those times, was f-you. Its not our problem...They had the same stance in Europe and Asia both.
Read Sun's books. He was worried about gaining control of China first, then implementing his plan, over time, second. He wrote specifically about not going radically from one system to another...
2. They led a Revolution out of similiar poor circumstances.
Sun and Chiang were studying ways to make their own Revolution successful.
To even suggest that Chiang or Sun were Communists, especially back before Communism had really even taken off (before 1926 in Sun's case) displays total ignorance.
It would be about like saying, "they used Russian, guns, and Russian tanks, therefore they were Communists."
There is no way that Sun, and ESPECIALLY Chiang were Communist.
Black Jade, you are off the mark.
Conversely, Sun spent a great deal of time in America, being educated in America both throughout his teens and his university years.
His Revolution was based on the American Revolution more than anything.
It would be the height of ignorance though to expect anyone or any country, Sun or Chiang included to be 100% in lock step with the USA. No one does that, not then or now.
Those people have their own self interests and will seek to fulfill those interests where-ever they can.
Sun's ideas were not 100% lock stock and barrel in line with everything exactly "American" as many arrogant Americans hope to believe. However, he DID envision strong Democracy with Chinese characteristics. He applied American ideology to his situation, thus creating a unique, third option.
The idea of a 4th option (a Communist Sun Yat Sen) is garbage.
This sounds extremely arrogant,the way you put it. You are inferring that anything other than 100% American style Democracy is somehow 'inferior'. If they don't have the exact word for word Constitution that American has then 'they are not quite a democracy'.
Under those definitions England, and Australia, and France, all would not be Democracies.
There are core basic principles behind "Democracy" that make things a "Democracy".
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