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Recipe for Losing a "War"
my opinion | 10/27/01 | me

Posted on 10/27/2001 9:53:11 AM PDT by Cobra64

Korea 1950s, this was a "conflict" while we lost 50,000 Americans killed. No Delaration of War.

Viet Nam 1960s-1970s, referred to as the Viet Nam war, another +50,000 Americans killed. No Declaration of War. Military logistics micro-managed from the White House and Capitol Hill

Fast forward... September/October, 2001. "We are at War, according to President Bush. No Declaration of War

Recent articles and editorials by retired senior military officials believe that again, just as in Viet Nam, Washington DC is micromanaging military logistics in Afghanistan.

Someone once said, "those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it."


TOPICS: Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS:
These are just observations from a guy who was drafted into the Army in the Viet Nam era but was never called up.

I'm not looking to get flamed, just curious if there are any other FREEpers who wish share clarification and/or agree/disagree with my observations.

Regards...
1 posted on 10/27/2001 9:53:11 AM PDT by Cobra64
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To: Cobra64
It isn't going as well as it should be. We should be way ahead of where we apparently are today. Again the politicians have kept the military from being effective.
2 posted on 10/27/2001 9:57:14 AM PDT by clintonh8r
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To: Cobra64
America has NEVER won a War it didn't declare

3 posted on 10/27/2001 9:57:18 AM PDT by Sabertooth
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To: Cobra64
Look at what the most successful generals in history did: Alexander the Great, when confronted with continuing opposition in what is now Afghanistan, killed everyone in villages opposing him (I don't agree with this, but as someone said this morning on Fox, "a Carthaginian Peace" produced no further wars from Carthage). WT Sherman said "total War is and has to be hell, it cannot be refined". Sheridan broke the Confederacy only when he destroyed the Valley so thoroughly a sparrow couldn't find a grain of wheat in its entire 200 mile length. Unfortunately, it appears we've got to be just as savage as the savages ruling Afghanistan and make no mistake about it, the Taliban ARE savage beasts that must meet the fate of savage beasts.
4 posted on 10/27/2001 9:58:52 AM PDT by laconic
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To: clintonh8r
All the while, the American media show less and less of the WTC and the Pentagon and more and more dead or injured Afghan babies and women.
The psycological war is being one by our own media against us:
1. The funerals and interviews with the friends of the slain soldiers.
2. Interviews with all sorts of family, friends and countrymen of Osama bin Laden making him "a misunderstood average guy."
3. Wearing down our resolve with 24/7 anthrax stories.
4. Interviewing "experts" who are informing us about the coming smallpox and even more deadly bio-weapons.

I'm sure there are more that I just have not thought of yet...

5 posted on 10/27/2001 10:13:26 AM PDT by RadicalRik
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To: Cobra64
After every "war" the we didn't "win", we decry the concessions made to political ends that subverted the military campaign. Then when the next "war" comes along, we do the same thing again. Isn't that the definition of insanity?
6 posted on 10/27/2001 10:15:35 AM PDT by etcetera
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To: Cobra64
We have sure lost the "Big Mo"! I don't give a damned if the Northern Alliance gets the prize; nobody is going to get it if we don't kick the Taliban out!

Let the Paks do the best they can. They will probably be consumed by the Indians anyhow.

If the commandante falls, we will have to neutralize their nuclear capabilities anyhow. Can't let that go to the Taliban!

7 posted on 10/27/2001 10:36:06 AM PDT by Chapita
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To: Cobra64
We have sure lost the "Big Mo"! I don't give a damned if the Northern Alliance gets the prize; nobody is going to get it if we don't kick the Taliban out!

Let the Paks do the best they can. They will probably be consumed by the Indians anyhow.

If the commandante falls, we will have to neutralize their nuclear capabilities anyhow. Can't let that go to the Taliban!

8 posted on 10/27/2001 10:36:41 AM PDT by Chapita
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To: Chapita
That was an echo!
9 posted on 10/27/2001 10:38:27 AM PDT by Chapita
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To: Chapita
For once I agree with McCain: it's time to B-52 Arclight a path for the NA to Kabul.

How will it look any different after? Afghanistan already looks like the craters of the moon.

10 posted on 10/27/2001 10:39:54 AM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: Cobra64

And we better start bombing mosques with tanks and soldiers hiding and sleeping in them. We already know they are hiding in Red Cross buildings because rice doesn't burn for 2 hours with black rolling smoke.

Either declare war, or this war is already lost. CNN and MSNBC (and even Fox) are winning this war for the Taliban.

11 posted on 10/27/2001 10:43:29 AM PDT by Terrorista Nada
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To: Cobra64
Vietnam! Part Deux
12 posted on 10/27/2001 10:49:55 AM PDT by CathyRyan
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To: clintonh8r
I'm not so sure the politicians are at fault-- I think we may have a bunch of wimpy, wishy-washy generals, who are simply not the caliber that we need. Have you seen any of them that looks or sounds like Patton?
13 posted on 10/27/2001 11:05:04 AM PDT by walden
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To: Cobra64
Right now, President Bush is doing a fine job of living up to his Father's legacy. The GOP Benedict Arnold of the Reagan Revolution.

I guess we have a kinder gentler war.

Before I joined the Bush camp in the early primaries I wrote to Bush and explained my problems with his father's policies. I offered money time and advertising space on my ranch if he would explain to me how his presidency would be diferent. I got a nice photo card of the family for a response.

Since I didn't see another viable candidate in the republican fiels I got behind Bush anyway but with substantial reservation. Right now I'm thinking that my chickens have come home to roost. BUT at least he ain't Gore. I would probably be living in Israel already if Gore had gotten in.

I believe Bush has the smarts and courage to recognise that he has been lead down the garden path by the State Dept. and take control of this war. Perhaps he can dredge up enough fire power out of the clintoon regime's generals to win a war in the stone age land of Afghanistan. We shall see.

14 posted on 10/27/2001 11:05:33 AM PDT by mercy
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To: Sabertooth
America has NEVER won a War it didn't declare

How about the War on Poverty? How about the War on Drugs? ;)

15 posted on 10/27/2001 11:16:51 AM PDT by Frohickey
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To: RadicalRik

The psycological war is being one by our own media against us:

1. The funerals and interviews with the friends of the slain soldiers.

2. Interviews with all sorts of family, friends and countrymen of Osama bin Laden making him "a misunderstood average guy."

3. Wearing down our resolve with 24/7 anthrax stories.

4. Interviewing "experts" who are informing us about the coming smallpox and even more deadly bio-weapons.

Well, I don't know about you, but for most of the American people, #'s 1, 3, and 4 don't amount to a "psychological war against us." The average American who reads reports of dead troops and bio-weapon attacks at home doesn't think, "Well, people are dying, we need to get out." The average American thinks, "They're killing our people, I wanna kill as many of those $%^$#s as possible!"

We need reports of bio-terror attacks at home, and we need to know when our soldiers die, so we know why we are fighting for revenge. Every Anthrax attack reminds us of why we are bombing Afghanistan up to the stone age.

16 posted on 10/27/2001 11:18:33 AM PDT by AndrewSshi
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To: Terrorista Nada
Terrific Logo! Any chance you could get a few thousand printed up as bumper stickers?

Normally, I don't believe in bumper stickers, but as a FREEper, living in the challenges facing us today, I'll be the first to put on my car's bumper. Maybe other FRs might feel the same way.

We could also mail them to all members of the House and Senate with the idea of challenging to get off their duffs and DO something instead of the typical Washington bull sh!t.

It would be terrific to see a few poster size ones in the Senate, Congress, the Pentagon, and in the White House.

If you will provide a proof and a quotation from a printer, I'll contribute $100 to the cause. Any others want to get on board?
17 posted on 10/27/2001 11:24:26 AM PDT by Cobra64
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To: RadicalRik
5. Passing laws (H.R.3162 ) that curtail the freedom of Americans while doing nothing to end terrorism.

Bush’s Anti-Terrorism Bill = Democrat Dejour In 2004.

18 posted on 10/27/2001 11:27:20 AM PDT by TightSqueeze
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To: Cobra64
You forgot that in this "war" we added a heavy dose of Political Correctness. Win at all costs, except when the costs include offending the Enemy, Muslims and Foreigners.
19 posted on 10/27/2001 11:31:09 AM PDT by GuillermoX
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To: Frohickey
You got me here, sir. If memory serves correctly, Lyndon Johnson was the President who mouthed the words, "War on Poverty" and the "War on Drugs" in his Great Society doctrine. Again, Congree never declared war on these either. Actually I'm not sure how that can be done under the Constitution. However, in the case on War on Drugs, convicted drug lords should have been executed (public hangings), considering the number of Americans who die each year due to drug abuse. I know this sounds pretty radical, but in war time, the enemy is supposed to die.
20 posted on 10/27/2001 11:37:15 AM PDT by Cobra64
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To: Terrorista Nada
RE # 11:

If we cease the bombing , or even reduce it, during Ramadan the USA
has essentially admitted the coalition is more important than winning
the war. Also, if the terrorists try to use mosques as sanctuaries
and we fail to take themout we are playing
a cruel hoax on the soldiers on the field.

How can we possibly win a war where we fight against an enemy who knows
no rules but we try to follow rules set up by CNN.

I just wish Rumsfield et al would just ignore those questions about
our bombs hitting civilians. In war, civilians are just support troops.

21 posted on 10/27/2001 11:45:53 AM PDT by cliff630
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To: Travis McGee
It's time!
22 posted on 10/27/2001 11:54:32 AM PDT by Chapita
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To: laconic
And we're getting mocked by the swarthy ones. These guys are like fighting cocks; violence appears to be inbred. Even the carpet bombing by the Ruskies didn't faze them. They'll fight to the last man and others of their ilk will soon replace the dead. Plus, forget any motivation from true religious sentiment springing from their breasts. They're all power-mad warlords, every last mullah, Saddam, Osama, every last one of them. In their diseased minds, all human affairs revolve around power, control, domination, subjugation.

Have this thing drag on for years? I want to go for broke. The lesson of Hama. Neutron bombs anyone?

Then I’d put the women in charge. I envision a gorgeous wall high tapestry of sewn together petrified scrotal sacs as a permanent remembrance of (certain of) man’s inhumanity to the distaff side of life.

23 posted on 10/27/2001 12:13:16 PM PDT by my trusty sig
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To: mercy
I guess we have a kinder gentler war

With all due respect Mercy, I don't think there is such a thing as a kind or gentle war. I am sure the 1 0r 2 million refugees in Afganistan would agree with me.

We should either declare war and send in thousands of ground troops, and quit fooling around with them, or get out. Regards

24 posted on 10/27/2001 12:23:14 PM PDT by biffalobull
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To: Cobra64
I agree with you 100% (except that you could have added the Gulf "War"). And we have terrible side-effects: the near disintegration of our society with Vietnam, wounding the tiger (Saddam), but leaving him to fight another day, and, it appears, the rapid accretion of federal control of our lives in this one.
25 posted on 10/27/2001 12:30:19 PM PDT by jammer
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To: biffalobull
Of course. Surely you could see I was being sarcstic. Unless we can get Schwartzkopf to come out of retirement or 'miracle of miracles' there's another Schwartzkopf hiding just under the joint chiefs level ... Bush has lost this war already.
26 posted on 10/27/2001 12:30:49 PM PDT by mercy
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To: mercy
Bush has lost this war already..

mercy, my friend ... how can you say that?!

How can any of us say this?!

It has not even been 2 months ... we have not even completed the beginning of the beginning.

What if there had been a capability to perform play by play ... bomb for bomb reporting during WWII ... would we all be here saying, indignantly ... "What are we doing in Cherbourg ...or Maknassy Italy? .... I can't even find that place on my globe... Why are we in Tunisia, for heaven's sake. WE NEED TO BOMB THE CROUTS ... but we are all over the map! Sheeez! What's Roosevelt thinking?! We've become Churchill's lapdog, we have ..."

We've the smartest, brightest, most dedicated .... experienced Warriors on our side ...

WE NEED PATIENCE ... I say, impatiently ...

27 posted on 10/27/2001 12:46:39 PM PDT by illstillbe
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To: illstillbe
ok ok ok. From YOU I'll take my medicine. I have rewritten that line in my latest vanity inspired by my inspiration to which you are responding. Thanks. LINK
28 posted on 10/27/2001 1:42:02 PM PDT by mercy
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To: Cobra64
Your observation(s) are right on. IMO, the lack of a declaration of war is capitulation to failure. If we as a nation cannot declare war, then we are not really serious about the matter and in the end, we will look like losers to the rest of the world. A declaration of war by Congress would emphatically state that we as a nation are serious and will do whatever it takes to defeat the enemy.

What we have now will amount to no more than yet another governmental program with it's own bureaucracy.

---max

29 posted on 10/27/2001 7:15:06 PM PDT by max61
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To: Cobra64
Geez, we've only been at this a short time. It has nothing to mirror Korea or Viet-nam. Getting tire of "we are messing this up" type of posts recently. These things take a little time.
30 posted on 10/27/2001 7:18:31 PM PDT by TheLion
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To: laconic
Attacks by barbarians require a response that barbarians can comprehend.

Bombarding them with MREs and proclaiming that their fighting faith is a "religion of peace" is incomprehensible to them.

If we cannot or will not fire their villages and put their women and children to the sword, we should get out of there.

31 posted on 10/27/2001 7:23:22 PM PDT by Jim Noble
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To: my trusty sig
Remember Nixon's 1972 Christmas Bombing of North Vietnam with massed flights of B52s that made the liberals so angry? Its because it WORKED. Perhaps that's what's needed in Afghanistan.
32 posted on 10/27/2001 7:26:02 PM PDT by laconic
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To: walden
>>Have you seen any of them that looks or sounds like Patton?<<

If you recall, the first eight months of WWII (for the US) was an unmitigated disaster.

And Patton wasn't called for until after the Kasserine Pass fiasco.

This war will be no different. Our officer corps is compromised with opportunists and peacetime losers.

After we lose a few battles, the warriors will start to surface, as they did in 1862, 1918, and 1942-43.

33 posted on 10/27/2001 7:27:56 PM PDT by Jim Noble
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: laconic
I'm sitting in Sherman's hometown (Lancaster Ohio) right now. We have plenty of different testaments here in town to that Sherman's philosophy in war. I think what the politicos are trying to avoid is WWIII. And as Einstein said, "I do not know with what weapons WWIII will be fought with, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones." Or perhaps you prefer Baron Jomini: "The means of war are approaching perfection with frightening rapidity." Don't get me wrong: I agree with you: total war now; peace later. But, at least our current leaders aren't spouting Cold War bulldung about "Domino Theories" and the like: Reagan demonstrated that superiority (of mind, of law, of culture)will, over time, assert itself. And it will do so, in this situation, as well. At least they're thinking about the "after the war" phase, 'cause just like there's always another war, there's also always a postwar phase, and we don't want to repeat Versailles in 1919.


Here's a funny, from my website,
www.contemporaryinsanity.org

enjoy.

35 posted on 10/27/2001 7:35:47 PM PDT by Ender1978
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To: Ender1978
Good point; but I am afraid of Robert McNamara-type "incrementalism", "gradualism" and "increasing the pain". It doesn't work with savages; they will try to show you just how much more pain they can take. Eliminate them and they will feel no pain and have none to brag about to their sympathisers in the Muslim world. What will work best with them is the Taliban's total eradication from an Earth which they have proven themselves unfit to share.
36 posted on 10/27/2001 8:17:53 PM PDT by laconic
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To: Cobra64
FYI, I sent a note to many friends of mine, with this site's (URL) bookmarked to them. I hope this thread stays up for a week or so before it's pulled. Some of my friends travel a lot overseas and may not be able to pick up your savvy comments!

Hang in there guys, we'll get the job done! God Willing!
37 posted on 10/28/2001 1:28:50 AM PDT by Cobra64
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To: Cobra64
You got me here, sir. If memory serves correctly, Lyndon Johnson was the President who mouthed the words, "War on Poverty" and the "War on Drugs" in his Great Society doctrine. Again, Congree never declared war on these either. Actually I'm not sure how that can be done under the Constitution. However, in the case on War on Drugs, convicted drug lords should have been executed (public hangings), considering the number of Americans who die each year due to drug abuse. I know this sounds pretty radical, but in war time, the enemy is supposed to die.

Nah. The recreational drugs industry (cocaine/marijuana/heroin) should be legalized and taxed. How about 10% excise tax on that to fund cultivation and testing of the drugs for purity and safety. Oh, of course, there is sales tax for the states, federal income tax for the manufacturers, capital gains tax for the shareholders, state income tax for the workers and also luxury tax. ;)

38 posted on 10/29/2001 7:03:07 PM PST by Frohickey
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