Posted on 10/29/2001 7:54:47 AM PST by truthandlife
There is a lesson to be learned for a great many, who don't even think God is there. They think of themselves as so wise and so superior to 'primitive superstition' that it is all nonsense, and inscrutable to their supposed 'intelligence' and 'knowledge'.
It is self-righteous folks such as this that Jesus was expressly not interested in saving--when he talked about healing the sick, and not the 'healthy'. These 'healthy' folks would not accept any such healing... nor was he inclined to cut them any slack if their hearts were not truly seeking. Hence he taught in parables:
As in Matthew 13:
"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
And as for teaching from disaster, the bible is replete with such, from the eating of the apple in the Garden of Eden, with the following eviction of Man from the Garden, and being barred from the Tree of Life, the Great Flood and Noah's Ark, to Pharaoh, and so on, up to the great and minor recorded prophets included therein. Just as TruthandLife describes with Isaiah. And the use did NOT stop in the Old Testament if you think there is some sort of disconnect between the New Testament and Old. Jesus himself pointed to disasters, as in Luke 13:3-5
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5. I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I.e., we will ALL die, someday, and the lesson is, that death will be permanent, without salvation, unless we repent.
Where did he say that?
I don't think that as Christians we can believe that God did this to us, but on the other hand He didn't stop it, did He? I believe there must be a reason for it, otherwise it wouldn't have happened. It must be part of the "master plan," if you will. Maybe this will bring the country back onto the right track, maybe not, but there must be a reason for it. There is no way we can understand why people have to suffer in this world, but I'm sure that God doesn't cause it!
Cause and effect apply more happily to physical phenomena than to historical events. IMHO, cause and effect are not useful metaphors for understanding history; rocks do not have motives--people do.
So Jesus was not interested in reaching those who did not accept his word.... Only those who already accepted it.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense...
The New Testament? Forgiveness and grace.
The message absolutely was NOT that God inspires loonies to slam airplanes into the side of buildings and kill thousands of people in order to teach other people a lesson about abortion. I can't imagine any concept that is less the message of the New Testament.
Furthermore, what about all the suffering Christian Brothers and Sisters who live under intolerant anti-Christian regimes? What sins have they committed to deserve such as you wish to occur if we "don't repent".
Someone once said that if God didn't judge America, that He would have to apologies to Sodom and Gomorra. I used to agree, but not any more. For one thing, it would be presumptive of us to dictate to God where He must execute judgment. Next, if that were true, the same would be for every nation of the world... and that judgment will not come until the end.
No my friend, I don't believe the Holy Spirit spoke to you, I believe you spoke to you.
Having said that, let me make it clear, that the constitution provides for the free exercise of religion and conscience. Those who came to these shores fleeing religious persecution wanted to be sure that there would be no governmentally established religion, which is what the establishment clause is all about. This atmosphere has allowed religioun to flourish. The founding documents of our nation also allowed free enterprise to flourish. These two powers, freedom of conscience and free enterprise have enabled us to become a profoundly religious and a profoundly blessed nation.
Now, getting to the heart of the issue. Those who are believers in Christ, in this great land of freedom and opportunity have been charged with an awesome responsibility. That is the propagation of the gospel to turn more and more people to God and biblical morality. The second responsiblity is to use our wealth--that is the wealth we believers have accumlated to be the hands and feet of Jesus to a hurting and improvrished world.
If you ask me, the church has failed at that responsiblity in the past decades. What I believe is that when judgement comes, it begins with the house of God (I think I read that somewhere). I believe the church in America needs to repent before we can ask non-believers to repent. When the world starts seeing us live right, they may be attracted to the gospel and we may see rightousness grow once again in our nation. I believe the judgement we should anticipate is judgement and persecution on God's people the church, to wake us up to do our job in this nation we have been entrusted with. That is why I reject the idea that the WTC was a judgement from God on our nation.
Finally, in the OT God judges His people Israel and he judges the nations with regard to how they relate to His people. If a nation blesses God's people, they are blessed, if a nation curese God's people, they are curesed. God in his provdence uses historical events to work out his eternal purposes. What others meant for evil, God, because He is sovreign can utilize for the establishment of his will.
I think when believers shout from the rooftop, that September 11th was God's judgement we are seen by the world as foolish hypocyts (sp). We have to clean up our own act. Then we can turn our attention to the world.
God is not a "creature," "evil" or otherwise.
And he doesn't owe you, or me, or anyone else a miracle.
Calling God "evil" because he didn't perform a miracle to prevent loss of life on 9/11 is insanity. If you were a believer, you would understand that. As it is, trying to reason with you on a thread like this is like trying to explain what flowers look like to someone who was born blind. I really don't understand why you bother posting, since those of us who are believers aren't going to be swayed by your obvious lack of understanding.
And, BTW, nobody except extreme Calvinists contend that God desired or caused what happened on 9/11. But he permitted it it as a call to repentance, which is a mercy. You don't understand that. You see no need to repent. You see nothing from which we, as a nation, need to repent.
You're wrong.
You are correct, forgivenss and grace through Jesus Christ. I hope you did read the whole article and I think you will understand his message but if you still have the same attitude after reading the whole article we can just agree to disagree on this one.
One thing that a lot of people believe is that God is a loving God. He is! It says in the Bible that "God is love" (I John 4:8) and "For God so loved the world.." (John 3:16) BUT their is an attribute of God that a lot of people do not believe or do not know about and God is also JUST therefore he must punish sin. The same Bible that tells us that God is loving and gracious also tells us about this same God that he is just and righteous and must punish sin. God tells us, "I am holy and just and righteous. I am of purer eyes thant to behold evil. The soul that sineth it shall die." (Habbakkuk 1:13; Ezekiel 18:4). Because he is a a just Judge, he must punish our sins. God will certainly punish sins. He is holy and just and must punish sin but he is also loving and merciful and does not punish us. In effect this created a problem which he has solved in Jesus Christ. We can either accept him or reject him as Savior. God loved us so much that he gave us a free will choice. If you accept as Your Savior then you are guaranteed eternal life but if you reject him before you die you are guaranteed judgement.
I have to go now but if you have any other comment or questions you would like to answer let me know.
I don't believe the O.T. prophesies for Isreal apply to the U.S.
As President Bush has said, 9-11 was the work of the Evil One. The human race insisted and got free will from the Lord. The work of the terrorists wittingly or unwittingly following the path of the Evil One was not the work of God.
Culteral rot is setting in the West as evidenced by secularism, materialism and the sexual revolution. A revival of faith among all religions would help us recover from the decadence setting into our society. All this was apparent to any observer before 9-11. The attacks did not convey this message, which is why the nonexistant "message" was "missed."
Curiously, the same "message" thesis is coming from the secular left; that 9-11 is the result of blowback from decades of evil American policies like capitalism, imperialism, interventionism, globalism, "supporting foreign dictators," or supporting the mujahadeen against the Soviets. The left says the message of 9-11 is for the U.S. to change policies and embrace the agenda of the lefties. Both extremes say the same thing, 9-11 is a message that you'd better support my agenda or be destroyed.
The real message from 9-11 is the one we can see in front of us without "missing" it. There is evil in this world. There are enemies in this world who hate us with no moral or rational basis. We must defend ourselves from this evil. God will comfort and support us in our grief and in our struggle against this evil.
Geez...you just HAD to bring that up...I was doing the 24 hour vigil at my father's bedside as he lay dying in August and they moved someone into the other bed, a minister. He hung a picture on the wall of a very tall office building in a New York type setting and there was Jesus, who was as tall as the building, peering into the windows. That picture still haunts me...I have been trying to locate a copy of it on the www, but have had no luck yet.
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