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To: mlocher
Since Aurelius seems to be leaving your post untouched, I'll address it.

myth 1... the emergence of states has caused subsequent economic and civilization progress

we only need to study the romans to learn that this is not a myth. barbaric tribes brought the roman empire to its knees. without a strong state that ensures national security there will be no investment leading to economic improvement because the outsiders will gather the fruit of one's toils.

Well, that's the Roman's spin on the fall of their Empire. Too bad it's a whitewash of their history. As Roman politics got more and more populist and their military bureaucracy more and more entrenched their civilization declined. The number one reason the barbarians won is taxes. If you were a peasant you ate more under the barbarians. The collapse of Rome primarily benefitted the illiterate which is why we consider it a "dark" time.

myth 2...there is near-universal agreement that democracy represents an advance over monarchy

democracy is an advance over monarchy. absolute monarchs keep their subjects in poverty, while tolerating a nobility class that help keep the peace and help bring wealth. democracy is responsible for the improvement of the human condition in western civilization.

Here you are attributing the growth of the middle class to democracy rather than to its true source, industrialization. Democracy allows the people to vote themselves a share of other people's property. This "communalizing" of property leads to moral decay and provides the intellectual climate necessary for socialism and/or fascism.

myth 3 ... there is no alternative to western style democracies [to guarantee freedom]

his arguments backing the debunking of this myth ring hollow. replacing elected officials with an elite ruling class will result in a dictatorship. absolute power corrupts absolutely. sooner or later there will be corruption.

Here you misunderstand Hoppe. Hoppe is not advocating monarchy. Rather, he is saying monarchy is better in most respects than democracy. The system he advocates is what is known as "market anarchism."

Hoppe's fundamental unit of "government" is insurance. He envisions a world of thousands of gated communities and city-states linked by a common law court system.

Unfortunately, we do not have an economic bill of rights. our government can tax, implement socialist programs and implement welfare programs. it is too easy for our government to raise taxes, and this does what the barbarians of an earlier era does: keeps people from wanting to invest in economic progress.

I think we've seen that democracy isn't restrained by a civil liberties bill of rights -- so why would we believe it would be restrained by an economic one. Political power is the power to steal. Giving it to a small handful of people is flawed (monarchy) but giving it to everyone (democracy) is a disaster. Best that no one be consider a "legitimate thief."

48 posted on 11/12/2001 11:45:53 AM PST by Entelechy
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To: Entelechy
You did a better job than I would have.
53 posted on 11/12/2001 12:06:49 PM PST by Aurelius
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To: Entelechy
thanks for taking the time to respond. i appreciate the critique. i would like to make a couple of points and ask a question.

here you are attributing the growth of the middle class to democracy rather than to its true source, industrialization

the two go hand in hand. without a free democracy, people will not invest in industrialization. people will not take risks if they cannot reap the rewards.

i think that hoppe is saying that he wants less government interference in the economy-- strongly agree. i think an economic bill of rights is a more practical and a more implementable solution.

can you clarify why you think the bill of rights has not worked? just curious to get your views.

thanks
61 posted on 11/12/2001 1:42:17 PM PST by mlocher
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