Prayer Warriors Fight Church-State Division

The New York Times ^ | 11.17.01 | John W. Fountain

[All-American Medic]

Please understand though, we are treading on thin ice. I am a Catholic, and as such I if choose to, I may send my sons to catholic school. I am certainly not demeaning you because of your convictions, because I tend to believe we share them. However if you allow christian prayer out loud in public schools, then you must allow ALL religious prayers out loud in school, that means any religion any person practices is fair game. I know I would not be comfortable with my sons listening to a hindu or pagan blessing or prayer. as I assume those parents would feel uncomfortable with my son reciting the rosary out loud. The problem is some of the folks on here on my side of this issue seem to be "religion-bashing" and thats their perogative but I have to agree with the conclusion they make. If you want to child to pray out loud in a group then, it is much better to send them to a religious school.

[Rogmonster]

"I guess I will never understand Christians. And I was one...'

I concur. I still, barely, consider myself a Christian and I don't understand it either.

[rwfromkansas]

Keep up the righteous fight against the evils of those that would stop God from being exalted in schools, warriors.

[rwfromkansas]

God allows bad things to happen to accomplish a greater good..it does not mean "prayer fails." Why do you post just to attack God and those who exalt him?

[rwfromkansas]

I think it is high time that people openly defy orders of the Supreme Court. It is no longer an institution of legal authority, as it is establishing viewpoints based on everything BUT the Constitution. Its legal opinions are thus nullified and of no effect. If I was the superintendent, we would be having the Lord's Prayer every morning. Yeah, I would get in trouble if I defied a court order, but oh well.

[rwfromkansas]

Perhaps you should learn your history. The founders supported religion in schools.

[nicmarlo]

It is this possibility, however remote, that must be minimized by the simple expedient of keeping any form of religion from being sanctioned by an attachment to government institutions.

'tis why our Founding Fathers made a Constitution which said there shall be no established religion and no infringement upon the free exercise thereof. It is against the Constitution for the government to infringe upon my rights to exercise my religion as I believe. And since my religion goes with me wherever I am, i.e., God is always with my, that is my belief, I have the right to pray wherever I wish. That is not instituting a state church.

[rwfromkansas]

you are the type who would have students who pray out loud marched off to the Principals office and suspended. In other words, the type who claims to support religious liberty, but really does not.

[David Gould]

sigh

I am not posting to attack God and those who worship him. I have pointed out that people who serve God could do so in better ways than by praying. God causes evil for greater good - fine, if that's what you believe. However, my point was that if everything happens exactly the way God wills it to then there is no point praying - your prayers will not change the outcome in any way so what is the point?

I also mentioned that God helps those who help themselves. Tht is my point - prayer does not help anyone according to my view and the view of those who think that all happens according to the will of God. Or do you think that prayer can make God change his mind?

If you are insulted by my comments, I apologise. However, I am merely trying to clarify what it is that Christians hope will be achieved by prayer in schools that could not better be achieved by some other action. If all you want is to glorify God, then perhaps you should look at the stars at night - if he exists, he has glorified himself far better than we can. Perhaps we should glorify him in our efforts for peace and happiness on earth, and not in pointless prayer?

[David Gould]

So you do not object to Satanists holding black masses provided they do not break the law (by sacrificing someone, for example)? After all, you are not allowed to prevent them from practising their beliefs, which go with them wherever they do...

[rwfromkansas]

I guess you would have a problem with Jefferson, who attended church in the CAPITOL BUILDING? Notice....there was no Jewish or Muslim services there, just Christian.

[rwfromkansas]

"However if you allow christian prayer out loud in public schools, then you must allow ALL religious prayers out loud in school, that means any religion any person practices is fair game. I know I would not be comfortable with my sons listening to a hindu or pagan blessing or prayer." Not according to Supreme court case after case after case in the 1800's, who considered other religions to be 'infidels' etc.

[so_real]

Sadly, Hell is in creation for a reason. There is a need for such a place as so many would fight tooth and nail just for the opportunity to spit in God's eye. I wish it were not so. Just remember Saul; even the worst among us is not a lost cause. I pray that the lost sheep find the flock again before the gate is closed. Keep the faith, my friends. And keep praying to God where-ever you are, what-ever you are doing, and who-ever might be observing.

[nicmarlo]

So you do not object to Satanists holding black masses provided they do not break the law . . .

Satanists and law-abiding is an oxymoron. They follow the prince of lies, one committed to doing evil. Doing evil is against the law.

[David Gould]

If it was clear that:

1.) God was real; and

2.) God was good

why would people fight tooth and nail against him? I know I wouldn't fight such a being.

[David Gould]

No, doing evil is not against the law. There is no crime called 'doing evil'. If prayer was legal in schools and I stood up in class and read a prayer that went like this:

'Satan, you are the true lord of this world. Let me revel in your power and your corruption. I dedicate myself to you for this end,'

what law would I have broken?

[weikel]

Jesus himself said to pray quietly in private and not be like the hippocrit pharisees.

[nicmarlo]

doing evil is not against the law.

Doing evil is against the law. You are arguing for argument's sake. End.

[All-American Medic]

" Not according to Supreme court case after case after case in the 1800's, who considered other religions to be 'infidels' etc." This was also the enlightened period of American History when Blacks were still considered property and 3/5's a man. Look, Im not stating that I dont think christianity is the one true religion, if I thought that then I wouldnt be catholic. However, if you are going to allow christians to be able to pray out loud in school, then you must afford other religions the same rights. This is not the 1800's, where for the most part, every American was christian or jew. If you think the Supreme Court should dictate what religions or faiths are "infidels" or not, then you turn America into what the early settlers fled Europe from. I have no problem with students silently affirming their faith before an exam or whatever, but what will you think the first time your son or daughter is forced to listen to a wiccan chant out loud in school??