Prayer Warriors Fight Church-State Division

The New York Times ^ | 11.17.01 | John W. Fountain

[David Gould]

I should point out another flaw in your analogy - I know my fahter exists and I know which laws are the ones he wrote down for me. There are many competing God claims out there. How do I know which set of rules I should be obeying? Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world - perhaps Allah is the one true God?

If I cannot tell which religion is true (do Catholics go to Heaven or Hell? What about Mormons? Baptists?), how can I be responsible? For a law to be just and fair, it must be able for it to be known to be true. For example, I can look at every act of parliament and every statute and regulation. I can see the courts in operation and know that these laws are the ones I should obey, and not the laws of Afghanistan, for example.

It is impossible for me to tell which laws I should be following and what God. Thus, God is manifestly unfair and unjust if he condemns me to eternal punishment. (The reason I bold this is that sometimes I get the feeling that Christians do not understand exactly what this means).

[LaineyDee]

Reread my posts. It will be the same answer, no matter how many times you belabor the obvious.

[David Gould]

Unfortunately, I do not understand your explanations. And that is my problem - no Christian I have spoken to has been able to give me an answer that makes any sense to me. Oh, well. I guess I'll have to keep asking.

[David Gould]

I should also add my thanks for your patience up until now. Talk to you some other time perhaps.

[nicmarlo]

The goal is *not* having a state supported "school god" that all children will be forced to pray to.

If you truly think that is the goal, you are deceived.

[Bellflower]

David, God is the righteous judge. He knows exactly the punishment that is totaly deserved and appropriate. Hell is the just place that fits the condemned for their sins perfectly. In your finite view and mind you do not see things perfectly as God does. Do you think a maggot, cockroach or deadly germ views itself as something disgusting? Do you want them in your food or your house? God is so clean, perfect and holy that if he were to look upon an unregenerated sinner he would see someone utterly disgusting and vile only perfectly fit for one place and that is hell. Only the blood of The Lamb is able to cleanse us. The amazing thing is that God loved us so much (because he knew what we could become if restored back to him through his son) that he bothered to give his perfect, pure, wonderful Son to die for us.

[David Gould]

God cannot view us that way because he wants to save us; therefore, we must have worth in his eyes.

Infinite punishment for finite sin is unjust by definition.

[Bellflower]

'God cannot view us that way because he wants to save us, therefore, we must have worth in his eyes.

Have you ever seen someone look at an old beat up car with an expression of admiration. They cared about it because they knew what it would become after they had completely restored it. They saw it as a shiny beauty when at the time it was a useless old wreck. God loved us while we were yet sinners not because we would stay that way but because he knows what we should and can become if we come to him with a sincere heart and let him clean us up and give us his righteousness in place of our completely deplorable sinfulness. If we are willing he will restore our original God likeness. Jesus endured the cross because of the joy that was set before him.

"Infinite punishment for finite sin is unjust by definition".

David, trust God. His wisdom is much greater than yours when it comes to what is just. Punishment is not meeted out time for time. Is it unjust to give a murderer a life sentence when it only took ten minutes to horribly killed someone?

[David Gould]

Bad example - they took a life and are therefore being punished by losing their life in the world. Do you know how long forever is?

As for trusting God, He cannot exist in the form Christianity portrays him as it is contradictory. I cannot trust God - I have to look at what it says in the Bible to determine if He is trustworty. When it becomes obvious that the Bible itself is not trustworty, either God does not exist or he is not the way he is portrayed in the Bible.

Sin can make us unworthy of heaven - that is easy to understand. However, there is no way that sin can make us worthy of an infinite time in hell.

[Bellflower]

David you really think you know more about justice than God? You can choose to spend your eternity seperated from him and every blessing that flows from him but I hope you do not. But if you do it is your choice. I don't think defending my logic which is correct will help you. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. I can only pray for you and hope someday you will get tired of your self imposed prison and will choose eternal life and joy through Jesus Christ our Lord who loved you enough to die for you.