Why West is Best

NRO ^ | 12/3/01 | Paul Johnson

[walden]

Thought-provoking, in terms of what "nation-building" must consist of in order to succeed.

[Mahone]

Bump for a good read.

[Harp]

Nice read

Hello, Islamic nations? Catching on yet?

[larryjohnson]

Have his US HISTORY.Good man.

[denydenydeny]

Clash of civilizations bump. Bookmarked.

[denydenydeny]

Clash of civilizations bump. Bookmarked.

[annalex]

Excellent, thanks.

Bumping my recent Defense of Liberty companions.

[Dan De Quille]

Great article. Bump.

[Architect]

Yeah, the West is the embodiment of all that is good in human history. What has it brought the world?

Fascism. communism. Two World Wars. Colonialism. The Nation state. The atom bomb.

I'm not saying that the West hasn't brought many good things to the world as well. But the self-adulation in this post makes me want to puke.

Oh. By the way, Islamic fundamentalism has one and only one cause: the perversion of Islamic culture caused by more than a century of Western meddling and colonialism. The earlier Jihadism had been dead for a thousand years until we came along.

[dr gene scott]

Why West Is Best

Because Jim Morrison said so??

[walden]

Neither fascism nor communism are unique to the West, unless you decide not to count China, North Korea, Vietnam, various Islamic fascist regimes in the middle east and Africa, and various other kleptocratic fascist regimes in Africa. And, as I recall, Japan was a big player in WWII, although WWI was exclusively western. Furthermore, you may not like the atom bomb, but I firmly believe that it shortened WWII and saved many more lives than it took, not to mention preventing war between the U.S. and the Soviet Union for 50 years through the policy of mutually assured destruction. As for colonialism, compare Africa now to colonial Africa, and then explain to me how Africa is now better off (you can do the same analysis on the middle east if you like.)

I think you missed the point of the article, though. The point is not that western civilization is perfect, the point is that it is light years better than the alternative. You may disagree with that conclusion-- being a westerner, as I assume you are, you are quite free to leave and go to the third-world nation of your choice. However, I notice that plenty of violently anti-western "intellectuals" choose to live in the west, despite its evil, and not in the third world they venerate (Edward Said and Susan Sontag come to mind, but there are thousands of others.)

[annalex]

Show me a non-western country that is freer or better by some objective standard.

[RobbyS]

Its states are likely to have uneasy relations with the West until Islam reforms itself I am afraid that Islam has already "reformed itself," and that reform has led it backwards to the "pure" Islam of Mohammed. As late as the 13th Century Thomas Aquinas could propose a discussion with Muslims based on a common interest in western science--the science of Aristotle. But I see no Avicennas in the Islamic World.

[walden]

I think there are plenty of middle eastern scientists and thinkers-- but you don't hear about them because they're all here in the west making careers subsequent to their education in the west. They identify with civilization and its values far more than they do with Islamic law. And most of them are probably Muslim in the same way that I'm Episcopalian; mildly and quietly. It's one of the more unfortunate aspects of life that only the loudest get heard, and mostly the people willing to be loud are radical in one way or another.

Unfortunately, these people had to turn their back on their countries in order to have a future in the modern world. I can sympathize, but it seems to me that the brain drain out of the Islamic world has left behind mostly intelligent thugs (as leaders and terrorists) and untutored peasants. If the middle east is to have a future, they desperately need to retain and regain their intellectual elites, but to do that, the governments and systems of law will have to be fixed first. It's a conundrum.

[veronica]

I would say that anyone who does not like it here is most welcome to leave. Planes leave all day, every day. And don't let the door hit you...

If people are too angry or stupid or arrogant to appreciate this great nation, this great, generous, free nation, they can just take a hike and make room for folks who do appreciate it.

[Architect]

This article was about the things which came from the west. Communism and fascism are Western ideas. Like many other Western ideas (some of which are cited by the article), they have been exported to the Third World. Both World Wars are also Western. Japan is a western country - the first one in the Far East to adopt western values.

Look, I don't want to get into too much an argument about this. I found the self-congradulatory tone to be infuriating. I still do.

Capitalism and the idea of liberty first arose in Europe because of its unique historical advantages. The geographic location - a large agricultural plain crisscrossed by rivers. The only other area of the world that fits this bill is Eastern North America. But North America suffered from two disadvantages: 1) no large domesticable animals 2) it is separated from the only possible civilization cradle (Mexico) by desert. In contrast, European had horses, sheep, cattle and easy transportation to both Egypt and Mesopotamia.

Roman Law and Christianity had nothing to do with it. The Common Law is superior to the Roman version. Any other religion would have adapted itself to the new realities of emerging capitalism, just as Christianity did. It is not a coincidence that the Reformation came shortly after the Renaissance.

[Architect]

it seems to me that the brain drain out of the Islamic world has left behind mostly intelligent thugs (as leaders and terrorists) and untutored peasants. If the middle east is to have a future, they desperately need to retain and regain their intellectual elites, but to do that, the governments and systems of law will have to be fixed first. It's a conundrum.

Exactly so. But the way for this to happen is for us to leave them alone and let them find their own way forward. The most exciting developments in the Mid-east today are probably in Iran, which seems to be finding its own path towards liberty and modernity. Thirty years of a US-supported thug regime were followed by twenty years of 11th century theocracy. But they seem to be about to throw off the past and move on. If only we let them be...

[RobbyS]

I think that the "modernists" among th Muslims have been left with no place to stay. One would have thought that cities like Cairo and Istanbul would have become centers of accomodation between Western and Islamic thought. But neither is a place that generates wealth. Istanbul still has one of the most favorable sites in the world, but Attaturk was unable to restore the flow of trade that went through the straits prior to 1914,because Stalin ruined Russian agriculture, and that can't resume until the Russians get their act together. Maybe we should let the Turks take oil fields of northern Iraq and thereby get a cash transfusion.

[Pistias]

All of us desire moral order. All of us wish for justice. The chief problem that faces a civilization is how to translate morality and justice into a workable system of law.

Evil people don't want the moral order, nor do they want justice--unless they think it is in their interest. I thought the chief problem that faces a civilization is how to get people to love goodness and justice even when it conflicts with their perceived interests, or to educate them to the true value of goodness and justice.