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To: Patria One
if scripture means sacred text, what else can it be but OT
the other Hebrew writings are the Torah -- which I think is a set of Laws
I don't think there was a separate judicial system back then -- when someone wanted a problem settled by law, they went to the Rabbi
my hunch is that when Jews want to find their way back to God -- they pick up the New Testament
which helps them re-find God in the OT
this is my own experience, and that of my friends
Love, Palo
8 posted on 11/24/2001 5:03:52 AM PST by palo verde
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To: palo verde; Impeach the Boy
"When the Jews questioned Christ concerning the afterlife, he pointed to the old testament (their scripture) and asked them why the prophets would speak of the God of Abraham and others if Abraham did not STILL exist (paraprhase)."

Where can I find that?

10 posted on 11/24/2001 5:11:18 AM PST by Patria One
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To: palo verde
Excerpt from Salvation in the Old Testament

http://www.uhcg.org/HoI/Salvation-in-OT.html

The the Holy Scriptures

Okay, what is the reward of the "saved" if one follows only the Holy Scriptures which is actually the Holy Scriptures? Did the ancient patriarchs 4 stumble around in the dark for 4,000 years awaiting a deified man to come and shed his blood for them so that they could obtain salvation? Absolutely not! YHWH (ETERNAL our CREATOR) was and is the Redeemer of Israel as He states in the next two

Scriptures: "But now thus saith YHWH that created thee, O Jacob, and He that formed thee, O Israel, fear not: for I have redeemed thee. I have called thee by thy name: thou art mine." (Isa. 43:1). "For I am YHWH CRTEATOR, the Holy One of Israel, thy SAVIOR: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee." (Isa. 43:3)

In fact, our Creator plainly states, "I am YHWH and besides Me there is NO SAVIOR!" 5

We could continue in Isaiah 45:15, 45:21, and 49:26, all of which show that the CREATOR of Israel calls Himself the only Savior and Redeemer of Israel. However, the point here is that the titles of Savior and Redeemer tell us something about our future as Israelites. What are we saved from? What are we redeemed for? These are questions that are raised in the titles of the CREATOR of Israel. The answer is clear. We are saved from death; Ezekiel 18:4 says, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." And again in verse 20, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." We are redeemed, meaning YHWH Himself has bought us: "I gave Egypt for thy ransom...." You see, it was our CREATOR that gave us His Commandments in the first place, and, likewise, it is He Who demanded a penalty - the death penalty - if we broke those Commandments. Yet, just as you and I, in any situation in which someone wrongs us, have the right to completely forgive, the Holy One of Israel has the right to forgive sins in any manner He sees fit. He alone can abrogate the penalty, which He freely does upon genuine repentance. 6

This is exactly what our Creator does, as He promises us through His prophets: "Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil. ...Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHWH: THOUGH YOUR SINS BE AS SCARLET, THEY SHALL BE AS WHITE AS SNOW; THOUGH THEY BE RED LIKE CRIMSON, THEY SHALL BE AS WOOL" (Isaiah 1:16, 18.).

Ezekiel also states this clearly: "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols ('Baal' worship! 7 ). I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your Holy One" (Ezek. 36:25-28 8 ).

Of course, 'Christianity' teaches something totally unscriptural. It says that because ETERNAL demanded the death penalty for sins, the only way to pay that penalty was by the physical death of a sinner. After that, the person in question was dead with no hope.

In "Christianity's" formula, the Deity of the the Holy Scriptures was harsh and demanding. Yet, we are told that 'J-sus' died to pay the ultimate penalty, 9 sparing us from death so that we might live. But there simply is no formula for such a teaching unless one goes to the Babylonian Mysteries!

12 posted on 11/24/2001 5:18:01 AM PST by Patria One
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To: palo verde
This may have already been answered, but the Jews have many holy scriptures. Collectively they are called the Tanakh. The Tanakh starts with the Torah (the 5 books of Moses - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy), and then goes on to the book of prophets (Joshua, Judges, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings, II Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi) and then the writings (Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Megilot, Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, I Chronicles, II Chronicles). The Torah (also called the Chumash -- the 5 books of Moses) are the Laws.

There are also many scholarly works which are held in reverence but are not "holy". These include the Talmud (which is commentary on the Tanakh written by ancient rabbis) and writings by Rambam (Maimonades) and Rashi among others. These later books are used to better understand the holy books, and contain some very detailed and often esoteric commentary. Rashi and Rambam in particular sought to find understanding of the Tanakh by dissecting individual words in some cases to discern new meaning. Tradition holds "there are 70 faces to the Torah", so while the literal meaning is considered true, there are also 69 other ways to understand everything contianed within the Torah.

I will give you an example. Rashi, writing on Genesis, explains that the order of creation is not as simple as you may think. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". You would think that this is the order of Creation. But as you see in verse 2, "The spirit of God hovered over the waters" begs the question, when did He create the waters? Rashi says the waters were created BEFORE the heavens and the earth. Why? For one, because verse 2 says "over the waters" without mentioning when they were created, it implies that the waters were already there. Furthermore, the word 'Heaven' in Hebrew is a combination of the words fire and water. So since God created the Heavens from fire and water, it stands to reason that the water had to exist before the Heavens. Rashi goes on to cite many other proofs of his claim. The phrase "In the beginning" means exactly that. It doesn't mean "at first". In the beginning is a point of reference for us, who sit a fair distance from the time of Creation. It is not meant to be interpreted as the sequence of creation.

156 posted on 11/24/2001 11:20:07 AM PST by monkeyshine
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