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To: ICU812; MarkWar
That was going to be my comment also: MarkWar must not have read the books. Even Sauron himself did not begin evil, but was seduced into it by the love of power. (This happens well before LotR begins; there is more about it in The Silmarillion.) The evil creatures in LotR are simply physical manifestations of evil in the heart. JRRT utilized the ages-old power of myth to tap into some human truths that lie very deep, to bring them up to the surface and make them vividly unforgettable by projecting them onto a complete world of his own creation. Whatever you think of the turbidity of his prose style (my kids could follow it perfectly around the ages of 8-10 during our bedtime book reading), this is not a kid's story.

And while we're on Robert Heinlein, try "The Tale of the Adopted Daughter," in Time Enough for Love (1973), which is one of the most moving stories I've read. The Cat Who Walks Through Walls (1985) is also one of my favorites, but it's more of an action/adventure story. He was truly "The Master" of science fiction.

90 posted on 12/10/2001 12:35:31 PM PST by Gordian Blade
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To: Gordian Blade; ICU812
>...MarkWar must not have read the books. ... The evil creatures in LotR are simply physical manifestations of evil in the heart. JRRT utilized the ages-old power of myth to tap into some human truths that lie very deep, to bring them up to the surface and make them vividly unforgettable by projecting them onto a complete world of his own creation. ... this is not a kid's story.

I don't mind saying that I haven't read the books all the way through. I've tried numerous times over the years, but I just get bored out. I have read big chunks of them and I have endured the entire Ralph Bakshi cartoon... So, although we may disagree about the content, I'm not just rambling (well, I am, but I have a little data behind me).

[sighs] Well, before I get to the *sigh* let me make another "full disclosure" type comment. I'm not putting down "kid's stuff." I LOVE many kid's books. Heck, the book "Harriet the Spy," by Louise Fitzhugh is not only one of my favorite books of all time, but went a long way to shaping my life and who I am. But kid's stuff is different from adult's stuff.

[sighs again] Now to the meat of the sigh. I'm going to repeat your quote because -- to my eyes! -- you make my point for me!

The evil creatures in LotR are simply physical manifestations of evil in the heart. JRRT utilized the ages-old power of myth to tap into some human truths that lie very deep, to bring them up to the surface and make them vividly unforgettable by projecting them onto a complete world of his own creation. ... this is not a kid's story.

No, in fact, NO! those aren't deep human truths. They are childish, one dimensional views of reality. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT FOR KIDS BUT FOR ADULTS IT'S STUNTED. People are not evil OR good. It's a tug of war in everyone. And it never ends! We don't become monsters with one or two or three bad decisions! The fact that LoTR presents characters who've "made a choice" and some have become monsters while others have stayed human is childish. It's a way of presenting reality FOR KIDS that brings up important topics, but it's important that people GROW OUT OF that simplistic approach to people and life.

Ultimately, this may be my chief complaint about LoTR and similar genre things. They take an ultimately childish one dimensional view of life and thinking, and present it as adult fare.

This was the thrust of my post that got this started when I said a person would be crazy to market a film like FULL METAL JACKET as kid's fare. And I think something similar goes on, in reverse, with LoTR when basically simplistic, one dimensional characters and reality are dressed up with "adult" language and sold to people as "deep" thinking.

Maybe it is. Maybe I'm totally at sea here, mis-interpreting everything. That certainly could be.

But I don't think I am.

Mark W.

93 posted on 12/10/2001 1:39:40 PM PST by MarkWar
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