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And if you are brave enough to venture any kind of rational response, try another one: in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament, who is the Final arbiter of greivances between two believers? Scripture, or the Church?

First, the word 'church' found in Matthew 16 and 18 is ekklesia - it is NOT a new creation - it existed in the 'Old Testament' as you call it. It is EXACTLY the same word used in the LXX in reference the People of God in the Wilderness at Sinai etc. God's Word could NEVER be contradicted by God, nor by the assembly of believers.

Deut 13:1-5 If there arise in the midst of you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and he give you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them; you shall not listen to the words of that prophet, or to that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proves you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and you shall serve him, and cleave to him. That prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because he has spoken rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to draw you aside out of the way which the LORD your God commanded you to walk in. So shall you put away the evil from the midst of you.

Deut 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Since you think traditions trump God's Word, I am interested why ya'll do not follow the traditions of the Rabbis - after all they are MUCH older, and actually more biblical. And Y'shua told you to obey them!

Matthew 23:1-3a: Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sat on Moses seat. All things therefore whatever they tell you to observe, observe and do..."

If y'all are going to go with the traditions of men, you have some catch up reading to do. Start with the 23-volume Talmud.

how come you did not answer any of the questions i gave you? instead you give a canned response that shows no thought. is that all you are, just know a few lines of scripture, and no depth?

come on, answer the Abraham question. if you cannot, then post no more here.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against any man, whatsoever the sin or wickedness be: but in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall stand. Deuteronomy 19:16 If a lying witness stand against a man, accusing him of transgression, Deuteronomy 19:17 Both of them, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the Lord in the sight of the priests and the judges that shall be in those days. Deuteronomy 19:18 And when after most diligent inquisition, they shall find that the false witness hath told a lie against his brother: Deuteronomy 19:19 They shall render to him as he meant to do to his brother, and thou shalt take away the evil out of the midst of thee

Matthew 18:15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. Matthew 18:16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. Matthew 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Matthew 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

do i have to spoon feed you the answer about Father Abraham as well?