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Rethinking software bloat.
Information week.com ^ | 12/17/01 | Fred Langa

Posted on 12/17/2001 4:33:52 AM PST by damnlimey

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More fodder for all the MS haters out there,but it does raise an interesting question.What do you think are the real reasons for "Bloatware"
1 posted on 12/17/2001 4:33:52 AM PST by damnlimey
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To: damnlimey
Greed & laziness. Pure and simple.
2 posted on 12/17/2001 4:42:18 AM PST by Exnihilo
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To: damnlimey
I think a lot of it has to do with people wanting the OS to do everything for them, in order to avoid having to do any detail work. In Win3.1, you had to go in and set drivers, and load drivers from manufacturers disks, set exactly how you wanted the hardware to perform. More and more, people are wanting to do Plug and Play, rather than get into the details of how a piece of hardware is supposed to work. That takes more of the coding as well. But I'm late for work (help desk is fun, help desk is fun...if I say it enough, I almost believe it....)
3 posted on 12/17/2001 4:42:21 AM PST by Tennessee_Bob
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To: damnlimey
I'm an MS hater, but, I must say that 32 bit OS improves the hell out of networking with older programs. There are software areas where a GUI is just unsuitable for data entry, and until another level for that data entry is reached, the fastest networking and user entry is on Win9x with a character based programming. And customers can still have pretty graphical printouts and graphs through the "OS".

Course XP blows that away.

4 posted on 12/17/2001 4:43:50 AM PST by jammer
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To: jammer
Just for comparison,this siteTiny apps shows just how small and tight code can get.
5 posted on 12/17/2001 4:51:47 AM PST by damnlimey
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To: damnlimey
More fodder for all the MS haters

This isn't more fodder. This is one of the reasons I am an MS hater. The other is that up until Windows 2000 applications software can crash and lock up the OS. That is inexcusible.

6 posted on 12/17/2001 4:54:25 AM PST by AndyJackson
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To: damnlimey
I am not an MS "hater", but I can see the obvious too.
Perhaps this is a good time to ask the question that "intrigues" me.

A long time ago we had text based Basic, which allowed anyone to write great, fast and useful programs to solve all types of problems, including Astronomic, Engineering and Technical problems of all types.
HP Basic particularly was extremely rich in commands that made anything very easy to program and output.
Where did it go?
With todays machines, that interpreted language would be incredibly fast. And useful.

Why is there no current version?
(That I know of...)

7 posted on 12/17/2001 4:57:02 AM PST by Publius6961
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To: damnlimey;bush2000;innocentbystander
Single data point: I run NT 4.0 Server and XP Home on my machine -- a PPro 200, 64MB RAM. My wife runs 98, and 2000 Pro on her machine -- a PIII 933, 128MB RAM.

Frankly, there's darn little performance difference I can detect between the two machines. In fact, I suspect I could do a blind test with a dozen random users and have a 50-50 distribution of accurate guesses as to which was the "fast" machine and which was the "dog".

I used to think my 8mhz "Turbo" XT w/640KB RAM was the bee's knees (compared to the 4 mhz (and slower!) 8 bit 64KB iron I'd cut my teeth on). Then I got my 10 (or was it 12?) mhz 286, and I was pickin' bugs from my teeth every time I got up from the keyboard. That sucker was fast.

Now, it seems that the iron has gotten so much faster than the apps that it's a "paper competition" with little real-world meaning for the vast majority of users.

Who needs the super iron? I see two classes of users, and for one class, the term "need" is applied in the loosest of all possible senses. The two classes are "gamers", and "network admins".

The only time I start feeling "cramped" on my machine is when I'm running multiple concurrent major apps, i.e., one or two instances of Visual Studio (running an app or two), SQL Server, IIS, and IE. IOW, when I'm doing that, I'm essentially running a whole network in one cramped little box. Most people don't do that.

To chime in on the author's theme, it wasn't that long ago (at least not at the rate that the years seem to keep peeling by at my age) that a 10 - 16 mhz 286-386 class machine, with 1-3MB of XMS memory was a high end network server, and cost a pile of money. Nowadays, we've got secretaries using machines that would have literally cost millions (and occupied rooms) a few years ago -- as glorified typewriters.

So, my two cents is that the "bloatware" thing is overblown. When 128 megs of RAM costs less than fifty bucks, and a 60 gig hard drive costs a buck a gig (I remember paying $275 for a 20 megabyte drive -- wholesale!), and no mix of OS and apps comes anywhere near taxing the capabilities for 99% of the users, "bloatware" is a non-issue.

8 posted on 12/17/2001 4:58:30 AM PST by Don Joe
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To: Bush2000; innocentbystander; SolitaryMan; Don Joe; lelio; Smogger; Dominic Harr; Rodney King...
Ping - let me know if you want to be added/removed from ping list!
9 posted on 12/17/2001 5:03:13 AM PST by stainlessbanner
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To: damnlimey
You want small? We use the K language (a descendent of APL) from Kx Systems. (Total size < 200KB - that's right, kilobytes!) We've built a complete database management system that fits onto a single floppy!
10 posted on 12/17/2001 5:05:04 AM PST by ZeitgeistSurfer
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To: jammer
"There are software areas where a GUI is just unsuitable for data entry, and until another level for that data entry is reached, the fastest networking and user entry is on Win9x with a character based programming."

Two things: one, there's nothing preventing you from deploying character-mode apps to an NT/2K/XP platform, and two, if a GUI-based data entry app has worse usability than a character-mode counterpart, it's the programmer's fault, not the GUI's. Granted, too may people do little more than drag and drop textboxes and then bind them to fields, but that's their fault. I can drive my car into a brick wall. If I do, that's not an indictment of Toyota.

11 posted on 12/17/2001 5:07:31 AM PST by Don Joe
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To: damnlimey
Greed, laziness, ignorance, and stupidity.

For more than 10 years I have watched with amusement as PCs that are much faster than the old ones take LONGER to boot up -- typically, a 1.2 MHz PC XT vintage 1986 would be fully ready to go in a few seconds, and the current models are more than 1000 times as fast and take nearly 10 times as long because they are doing 10000 times as much computational work!

But the REAL problem with software bloat is not the slowness, it is the complexity which makes applications almost impossible to properly debug. NOBODY I know, and I know a LOT of computer types, makes any attempt to fix Microsoft-related errors themselves as they would with Unix or Linux, nor do they bother trying to get Microsoft to fix them because it just won't happen; instead they just shrug, reboot, and work around. A certain level of "Your program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down" and a (lower) level of total freeze-ups and blue screens of death are simply accepted as a tolerable inconvenience.

But every single time this happens, there are one or more theoretically identifiable HUMANS who made specific MISTAKES that could be tracked down and blamed on them. The practical difficulties of this are sufficient that most of us are willing to simply let them be condemned to hand-simulate the infinite loops of their own programs in programmers' hell after they pass on.

12 posted on 12/17/2001 5:14:30 AM PST by VeritatisSplendor
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To: damnlimey
Techno-Bump

This is an interesting "discovery." I guess the author is saying that the latest h/w resources allow the older os to provide better-than-ever performance because older os's don't have the unneeded overhead.

I hate unneeded overhead anyway.

Russ

13 posted on 12/17/2001 5:16:21 AM PST by kinsman redeemer
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer
--this software you have, this could be a forum style software as well, correct? If not please excuse, I am far from being any sort of alpha geek on these matters.
14 posted on 12/17/2001 5:17:43 AM PST by zog
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: damnlimey
Yea, there's bloat allright...

But there NEEDS to be another Hardware solution...

Simultaneous calls and virtual multiple clocks or something...

Then it'll all work!

Something big, yes sir... that's it!

16 posted on 12/17/2001 5:35:58 AM PST by No!
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To: damnlimey
bump
17 posted on 12/17/2001 5:43:51 AM PST by 74dodgedart
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To: damnlimey
With 60G of hard drive space for less than $200 and 512 MB of RAM for about $100, who cares how large it is? I recently read they created a 180G hard drive. Storage is cheap! As long as a reasonably fast speed is still there (I don't recall ever waiting for the operating system software to perform any operation), who cares how big the code is?
18 posted on 12/17/2001 5:44:29 AM PST by SW6906
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To: damnlimey
I used to hand code assembly language for the 6502 microprocessor (Apple II - 1 Mhz). That little thing was awesome, many instructions executing in a single clock or two, like an early RISC device. You could do amazing things. I graduated to Turbo Pascal on the early 4.77 Mhz IBM-PC. I used that with some inline assembly code, and that sh*t would fly!

Ahh, the good ole days..

19 posted on 12/17/2001 5:45:03 AM PST by Paradox
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To: SW6906
Let me correct that: I do wait about a minute or so for W2K to start up, but from then on, it's lightning fast (1.33G processor, 512MB RAM!).
20 posted on 12/17/2001 5:46:27 AM PST by SW6906
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