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To: Junior
The theory of quantum mechanics is maybe completely understood by a handful of physicists on this planet, but that doesn't mean it is full of holes; it simply means it is more involved than the average joe understands.

Major correction -- quantum mechanics is not completely understood by anyone. First, there is still no reconciliation of quantum mechanics and gravity, which is necessary for Grand Unified Theory. Moreover, even assuming a GUT is found, our understanding of what we know about quantum mechanics as far as we know it is incomplete.

Physicists do not know which explanatory model of the observed data regarding quantum mechanics is true. This is an open question in particle physics of which there are several competing models. Two of the most prominent are the Copenhagen school and Bohm's rather contrived solution regarding what is going on in quantum physics. Fact of the matter is, reality is stranger, more varied and intricate than we often postulate. There are lots of places where our understanding is clearly limited. This does not mean that God is to be found in those gaps.

In Christian tradition, God is to be found in the everything -- the idea of immanence -- the rules and laws of nature are not self-explanatory, meaning that there is no logical reason why they have to be as they are and there is no logical reason why we, from an evolutionary standpoint, should be able to understand them. Thus, you have some pretty big brute facts that must be dealt with without explanation (apparent human rationality, apparent human freewill, the apparent comprehensibility of the cosmos to human rationality and the apparent fine-tuning of the laws of nature to allow beings like us to evolve-- the anthropic principle). These brute facts can only be assumed by science, can't be proven or explained, never will be able to either -- they are epistemic and ontological problems that are not soluble within the scientific method, they must simply be taken for granted. Theism creates a framework wherein these apparent facts are understandable. Remember, if the reductionists are right, there is no such thing as free will and there is concomitantly no basis for believing humans are rational.

59 posted on 12/18/2001 9:14:37 AM PST by valhallasone
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To: valhallasone; Junior
Junior: The theory of quantum mechanics is maybe completely understood by a handful of physicists on this planet, but that doesn't mean it is full of holes; it simply means it is more involved than the average joe understands.

valhallasone: Major correction -- quantum mechanics is not completely understood by anyone...

A minor correction to the major correction:
quantum theory is well understood by most graduate students, and this is the point Junior was making.

You seem to be confounding two issues: completeness of understanding of a body of knowledge, and completeness of that body of knowledge itself. Contrary to the following,
our understanding of what we know about quantum mechanics as far as we know it is incomplete,
our understanding is complete as far as this area is built.

Granted, some issues are still open --- GUT is but one of them, as you pointed out. Whatever axioms the current theory posits, we can always ask, why have these been chosen, do these axioms follow from some other, even more basic antecedents? This is true, in particular, with respect to the most fundamental elements of quantum mechanics --- a particle's state and the measurement thereof (I presume this is where reference to Bohr leads --- his complementarity principle). As you recall, every particle is presumed to be in a combination of some states that is characterized by the probabilities of each; and, upon measurement, it "materializes" in one of the states with the corresponding probability. This "materialization" is not quite clear, and it is this point that compelled Einstein to write to Bohr, "G-d does not play dice."

Well, not only is this normal in the sense that every science has unanswered questions, but it cannot be otherwise. The (corollary to the) Completeness Theorem of Gödel (1930) states, in essence, that there is no theory that is both complete and internally consistent. Scientists have preference for consistency. Consequently, whatever body of knowledge they leave behind is necessarily incomplete.

Junior: stop pretending --- to me, you sound more like a senior.

73 posted on 12/18/2001 10:50:04 AM PST by TopQuark
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