Kosovo - list of Civilians murdered presumably by KLA in 1998

hoplite gave me the link | unknwn | Yugoslav Government

[vooch]

since the UN took over Kosovo the civilain murder rate has risen fourfold.

In the 2 years prior to Clinton's bombing about 500 civilains died...........in the 2 two years after 1,100 died and 1,300 disappeared presumed dead.

[vooch]

A quick count of this death roll indicates that 100-110 civilians were murdered in 1998.

I kept partial stats on the civilian toll for the first 3 months of 1999 and have something less than 100. (of course my numbers may miss some victims)

So, net net my estimate of 500 civilains killed in the 2 years prior to Clinton's bombing was erred on the side of UNMIK/Kfor and against the sinister regime of the evil Milosevic. The 500 estimate came from a review of the death roll on Adem Demaci's (founder of the KLA) CDHRF site. His interest was to inflate the toll to encourage Humanitarian Warriors to bray for bombing.

thanks to Hoplite for helping to set the record straight. I stand corrected.

Instead of the death toll rising fourfold under UN occupation......the civilian death toll seems to have risen between 8-10 times So much for the benefits of UN occupation.

[bluester]

Someday, I hope you'll post the names of Albanian civilians that were killed by Serb military/paramilitary forces as well Vooch.

[Goblins]

As my father says, "The earth seems to be passing through a galactic stupid cloud.". It seems people are to busy to think for themselves these days. Fast food for the body, crass media for the mind.

[Hoplite]

Gee, does this mean that the 18 members of the Deliaj family are still alive?

Or does that just mean that since they were killed by Serb Security forces that they wouldn't have been reported by media organs loyal to Slobodan Milosevic, such as yourself?

= )

[staritrg]

Hej Hoplite give me the brake!You are going to say that botle og CocaCola find itself a way in the ass of the man or how many of Serbian civilians got killed for last 56 years from your "victoriuos rebelion Jan 1945" or so called Authonomy .Could you explain to all of us:how it comes that you and your people allways asked something which is given to you from some regimes like Nazi Germany and Italian fashistics and as well Tito's communists? It will be very interesting to see your answer.

[Hoplite]

Lemme see if I can't paraphrase your question here:

How can I defend crimes against Serbs by Kosovar Albanians?

I don't - the ethnicity of victims is not important to me. Reducing the overall number of victims is. And if that means bombing nations run by the likes of Slobodan Milosevic in order to reduce the level of mayhem in Europe, so be it. We now occupy Kosovo, and the level of violence there has gone down markedly since the departure of Milosevic's forces, contrary to what people like Vooch would have us believe.

The difference is that people like Vooch are attempting to lie and deny when it comes to Serb crimes against Kosovar Albanians (or Bosnians, or Croats), while playing up events where Serbs are victimized to their fullest extent, unless the perpetrator was associated with Slobodan Milosevic (bank scandal, electoral fraud, take your pick).

Lastly, I'm not affiliated with any of the ethnicities in the Balkans other than by our common humanity.

[joan]

"Gee, does this mean that the 18 members of the Deliaj family are still alive?"

How do you know that the Deliaj family wasn't murdered by the KLA? Mutilation is the work of the KLA. If the Serbs were so brutal why did they bother to capture and imprision over 2,000 Albanian KLA/KLA affiliated instead of outright killing them?

None of the Albanians released from Serb jails looks to be anything but well-fed. No one looks mutilated or anything. It's the KLA's M.O. to mutilate.

The massacre of those people took place in a KLA stronghold.

[Leonora]

We now occupy Kosovo, and the level of violence there has gone down markedly since the departure of Milosevic's forces, contrary to what people like Vooch would have us believe.

And that is based on which data? During Miloshevic (not that I want to defend him) there was a low-level conflict between KLA militants (armed and encouraged by CIA and Germany) and Serbian militia (which consisted both of Serbs and Albanians), there were almost no civilian casualties. There were political prisoners though, but under Miloshevich and Tito there were political prisoners of all ethicities, I don't believe Albanians were particularly targeted.

The number of murdered civilians since UN overtook Kosovo is much, much higher now and that's the fact.

We are not trying to downplay the number of other non-Serb victims, but the fact is that their numbers were ridiculosly overblown by media to justify Clinton failed policies and nation building in the Balkans.

And I don't see how you can justify bombing Serbia or any other country, like Afganistan or Iraq, for any reason.

There is no such thing as "humanitarian bombing", you can't help some innocent people by killing other innocent people. Or, like in case of Afganistan, which I found painfully cinical, where they first send airplanes to drop food, and afterward they send airplanes to drop bombs.

And, when educated and intelligent people like you don't see irony in things like these, then one should wonder which direction the humankind is going.

[The Big Dog]

We now occupy Kosovo, and the level of violence there has gone down markedly since the departure of Milosevic's forces

Oh please. No one believes that but you and a few other extremely uninformed people. Some children in Kosovo can't even walk to school without being escorted by armed Kfor troops, other people are afraid to go to the store because they don't speak Albanian. Not to mention the white slavery of young eastern european girls who are forced to perform sexual favors to anyone who can afford to pay their pimps. None of this was happening 5 years ago. If you're not Albanian, Kosovo is the worst place in the world to live. And unfortunately for the KLA and for you, the west is slowly but surely shifting their support away from the KLA and to the Serbs.

[Hoplite]

Joan.

Air your denial complex in front of someone else, Ok?

I've had enough of pathetic Serb apologists like you - send an e-mail to Stella or something.

[Hoplite]

Alright hero, given that 1,200 people died in Kosovo per the SUC's numbers, how many have died in Kosovo since NATO took over?

Kindly document your claims, or don't bother posting anything.

[Gael]

Here’s a starting point. It’s limited to Serbs, and only covers June through August 1999, but nevertheless gives a pretty astonishing carnage list for a NATO-induced “peace”. But those are redundant concepts.

Dead

Abducted

Why is it that, wherever NATO goes in the Balkans, it manages to replicate the political status quo circa 1943? Riddle me that, peace boy.

[Hoplite]

See my response to Big Dog - if you have a number that you can document, bring it.

You don't get to designate all Kosovar Albanians as KLA members, there were more than enough women and children killed by Serb security forces in 1998 to invalidate that claim not to mention the fact that the KLA was, is, and forever shall be less popular than the LDK.

Educated and intelligent people like me know that bombing is used when diplomacy fails in instances where our national interest is great enough to force an issue.

Slobodan's wars in Europe, the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and their continuing non-compliance with the terms of their surrender, and the Taleban's support and protection of Osama bin Laden all qualify as instances where our national interest was sufficient enough to instigate military action to influence the course of events on the ground.

Peace is the ideal, but I'm not buying it at the cost you would have us pay.

[Hoplite]

Why is it that, wherever NATO goes in the Balkans, it manages to replicate the political status quo circa 1943? Riddle me that, peace boy.

The leadership of Yugoslavia managed to divide the residents into Chetnik, Ustashe, and Muslim camps just fine by themselves, Gael.

[Gael]

Past was prologue, just the way NATO wanted it. Perfesser Gael has put together a quiz just for you Hop, although anyone else interested can play too. It’s really simple: guess whose dreamy dreams all came true thanks to NATO and the humanitarian warriors?

Then:

Mile Budak, an Ustasa leader, stated the Serb minority would be handled according to a mathematical formula: One-third would be exterminated, one-third forcibly converted to Catholicism, and one-third resettled outside Croatia. In reality, these neat fractions were blurred as Ustasa state policy tended toward the annihilation of all Serbs within its territory.

And now.

Then: "time has come to exterminate the Serbs ... there will be no Serbs under the Kosovo sun”

And now.

And of course, some people never had the decency to go away in the first place. ”In our land, with our faith”, anyone?

I’m sure you’ll do well enough to get an A in my Agendas 101 class.

[Leonora]

As for your response to Big Dog, you can't compare the situation in 1998 and the one afterwards. In 1998 ther was a low grade civil war, so 1200 victims (most of them among Serbian militia and KLA) is not a bad number. I think at the time a congressman from Georgia said that that's how many murders happen in Atlanta in one year.

However, now that we have this wonderful peackeepers (who apperantly instead of keeping peace keep shooting themselves in various types of "accidents") the amount of the dead civilians is unaccaptable.

As for the rest, I'll do a little profiling here:

You live in San Jose, ha? I bet you are one of those self-centered and self-righteous geeks who works 15 hours a day in a high-tech field, who finds a little time to read this or that and thinks he (or is it a she? ) knows everything. So, if it is in our national interest to starve a few million Iraqi children or shoot a couple hundred of Afghanistan or Serb children, that's OK. Well, it's not OK. It is morally wrong and if we want to remain the world leader we have to be a role model too.

And, BTW, I don't have anything against geeks ( I myself have a degree in a high tech field), I just don't like self-centered people.

[Hoplite]

The Krajina Serbs were not the worst refugee problem in the balkans, and why on earth would you post to such an obviously erroneous article - 14,000 killed in Operation Storm?

I hope you didn't spend too much time on the rest of your post, Gael, 'cause I've given it all the time it deserves already.

[vooch]

. If you're not Albanian, Kosovo is the worst place in the world to live

very wrong here BigDog..... especially if you are a moderate or loyalist Albanian, Kosovo is the worst place in the world to live

..........

At least Kfor makes a pretense of guarding minorities.....in the Albanian districts the KLA is left free to rampage.....

Adem Demaci says that 800 Albanian civilians have been murdered since the UN occupation began.