Posted on 12/24/2001 4:25:26 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
It has occured to me since I started this thread this morning what subconsciously appealed to me about this article, "I Pledge Allegiance to the Confederate Flag."
Any loyal American is going to see those words, and it's going to grate on them, perhaps subliminally. The words are suferfically very familar to the vast majority of Americans and the Pledge of Allegiance (the real one) has a place in everyone's psyche. And it provides a good framework to expose the fraud of legal secession, honorable slave holders, deserting armies and all the rest.
The more bumps it gets and the more people who are exposed to a more complete record the better, and the more shrill and agitated the neo-confederates get, and the more wild their charges and insults become.
Walt
1. A clear majority of the original framers wanted to rid the nation of slavery through measures like the Northwest Ordinance. and,
2. He showed that the federal government clearly had the power to legislate the territories.
That made him a marked man in the south. And it meant that slaver plans to destroy the Union must be quickly brought to fruition. Thanks for all your resarch.
Truth is, John Quincy Adams and others had made those facts plain decades before Lincoln, and Calhoun had already drawn his line in the sand. Calhoun and Co. must hold the all time record for walking out on democratically run proceedings. In fact, while an old and wizened J Q Adams was winning the petition argument in the House, a young representative named Lincoln was watching and learning. The Wilmot Proviso, a carbon copy of the Ordinance of '87, was introduced in the House (and failed) the year before Lincoln took his seat in the House. All throughout, the Slavocracy held that the Congress not only couldn't legislate against slavery in the territories (or DC), they held that Congress couldn't even bring up a motion to consider reading a petition from citizens for abolition of slavery in the territories or DC. Couldn't even discuss discussing it or the hotheads would walk out. How's that for constitional principles? Lincoln was a link in a chain that goes all the way back to the Quakers and men like Ben Franklin, who opposed slavery from the beginning.
but who were willing to make incredible compromises for the long term good of America, and perhaps it isn't wrong to say, humanity. Lincoln understood this.
R U B B I S H !!
The divide over slavery was not only a major issue in itself as can easily be seen in congressional debate, the demise of the Whigs, the Lincoln-Douglas debates, the rise of the Republicans, to the fracture of the national Democrat party into secessionist and Unionist groups. The slavery question found its way into every debate and federal question, even to the point of guerrilla war breaking out on the frontier in admitting new states.
Holt sounds like a well-grounded historian. If he said that the belief by some that the North went to war to end slavery is Rubbish, I would agree. But to say that slavery, especially the expansion of slavery to the West was not the primary cause and the unbridgeable gap that caused the Union to fracture is even greater rubbish. I sincerely doubt that Holt said that.
Without slavery, there would never have been a Civil War.
It just sounded so funny when I read it, and I could just see your face of sarcasm or satire as you typed it.
Truth is funny many times, especially with the right timing or delivery.
Oh, and thanks for the added explanation.
Cheer for the New Year. Keep your chin up, bud. Regards. SOT
Sorry, I hope I didn't upset you. I think there's merit to what you said. So what the heck's the matter with controversy on X-mas eve? If anybody doesn't like controversy 24/7, they should be at FR, IMO!
BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Lincoln called slavery a "continual torment to him --personally--.
Of Lincoln Frederick Douglass said:
"Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical and determined."
Also:
"When some suggested in August 1864 that the Union ought to offer to help return runaway slaves to their masters as a condition for the South's laying down its arms, Lincoln refused even to consider the question.
"Why should they give their lives for us, with full notice of our purpose to betray them?" he retorted. "Drive back to the support of the rebellion the physical force which the colored people now give, and promise us, and neither the present, or any incoming administration can save the Union." To others he said it even more emphatically. "This is not a question of sentiment or taste, but one of physical force which may be measured and estimated. Keep it and you can save the Union. Throw it away, and the Union goes with it."
...For the newly freed and the newly enlisted black men who served in the Union army--in the end more than 179,000 of them---perhaps the greatest moment was when they they too, shared the experience of paying their respects, of marching past their presidents in their new uniforms, looking as smart and martial as any. On April 23, 1864, and again two days later, newly mustered black regiments in a division attached to the IX corps passed through Washington on their way to the Virginia front. They marched proudly down Pennsylvania Avenue, past Willard's Hotel, where Lincoln and their commander, Burnside stood on a balcony watchingWhen the six black regiments came in sight of the president they went wild, singing, cheering, dancing in the street while marching. As each unit passed they saluted, and he took off his hat in return, the same modest yet meaningful acknowledgement he gave his white soldiers. He looked old and worn to the men in the street, but they could not see the cheer in his breast as he witnessed the culmination of their long journey from slavery, and pondered, perhaps, what it had cost him to be part of it. Even when rain began to fall and Burnside suggested they step inside while the parade continued, Lincoln decided to stay outdoors. "If they can stand it," he said, "I guess I can."
--"Lincoln's Men" pp 163-64 by William C. Davis
"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races. I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." Abraham Lincoln - 1858
Let's see if a more complete selection has anyeffect on you.
Funny though. What has slamming Abraham Lincoln got to do with reverence for the CSA flag?
Lincoln can speak for himself:
"I confess that I hate to see the poor creatures hunted down down, and caught, and carried back to their stripes and unwarranted toils; but I bite my lip and keep quiet. In 1841 you and I had together a tedious low-water trip, on a Steam Boat from Louisville to St. Louis. You may remember, as I well do, that from Louisville to the mouth of the Ohio there were, on board, ten or a dozen slaves, shackled together with irons. That sight was a continual torment to me; and I see something like it every time I touch the Ohio, or any other slave-border. It is hardly fair for you to assume, that I have no such interest in a thing which has, and continually exercises, the power of making me miserable. You ought rather to appreciate how much the great body of the Northern people do crucify their feelings, in order to maintain their loyalty to the Constitution and the Union."
8/24/54
"If A can prove, however conclusively, that he may, of right, enslave B. -- why not B. snatch the same argument, and prove equally, that he may enslave A.? --
You say A. is a white, and B. is black. It is --color--, then; the lighter, having the right to enslave the darker? Take care. By this rule, you are to be the slave to the first man you meet, with a fairer skin than your own.
You do not mean color exactly? -- You mean the whites are --intellectually-- the superiors of the blacks, and therefore, have the right to enslave them? Take care again. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first man you meet, with an intellect superior to your own.
But, say you, it is a question of --interest--; and, if you can make it your --interest--, you have the right to enslave another. Very well. And if he can make it his interst, he has the right to enslave you."
1854
"I will say here, while upon this subject, that I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which in my judgment will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong, having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary, but I hold that notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. [Loud cheers.]
I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects---certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. But in the right to eat the bread, without leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man."
August, 1858
"The principles of Jefferson are the definitions and axioms of free society. And yet they are denied, and evaded, with no small show of success. One dashingly calls them "glittering generalities"; another bluntly calls them "self evident lies"; and still others insidiously argue that they only apply to "superior races."
These expressions, differing in form, are identical in object and effect. -- the supplanting the principles of free government, and restoring those of classification, caste, and legitimacy. They would delight a convocation of crowned heads, plotting against the people. They are the van-guard -- the miners and sappers -- of returning despotism. We must repulse them, or they will subjugate us.
This is a world of compensations; and he that would -be- no slave, must consent to --have-- no slave. Those that deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves, and under a just God cannot long retain it."
3/1/59
"I do not perceive how I can express myself, more plainly, than I have done in the foregoing extracts. In four of them I have expressly disclaimed all intention to bring about social and political equality between the white and black races, and, in all the rest, I have done the same thing by clear implication.
I have made it equally plain that I think the negro is included in the word "men" used in the Declaration of Independence. I believe the declara[tion] that "all men are created equal" is the great fundamental principle upon which our free institutions rest; that negro slavery is violative of that principle; but that, by our frame of government, that principle has not been made one of legal obligation; that by our frame of government, the States which have slavery are to retain it, or surrender it at their own pleasure; and that all others -- individuals, free-states and national government -- are constitutionally bound to leave them alone about it.
I believe our government was thus framed because of the necessity springing from the actual presence of slavery, when it was framed. That such necessity does not exist in the teritories[sic], where slavery is not present.
...It does not follow that social and political equality between whites and blacks, must be incorporated, because slavery must not."
10/18/59
"But to be plain, you are dissatisfied with me about the negro. Quite likely there is a difference of opinion between you and myself upon that subject. I certainly wish that all men could be free, while I suppose that you do not... You say you will not fight to free negroes. Some of them seem willing to fight for you; but no matter. Fight you then, exclusively to save the Union...
Negroes, like other people act upon motives. Why should they do anything for us if we will do nothing for them? If they stake their lives for us, they must be prompted by the strongest motive--even the promise of freedom. And the promise, being made, must be kept....peace does not appear as distant as it did. I hope it will come soon, and come to stay; and so come as to worth the keeping in all future time. It will have then been proved that, among free men, there can be no successful appeal from the ballot to the bullet; and that they who take such appeal are sure to lose their case, and pay the cost. And then, there will be some black men, who can remember that, with silent tongue, and clenched teeth, and steady eye, and well-poised bayonet they have helped mankind on to this great consumation; while, I fear, there will be some white ones, unable to forget that, with malignant heart, and deceitful speech, have strove to hinder it. Still let us not be over-sanguine of a speedy final triumph. Let us be quite sober. Let us dilligently apply the means, never doubting that a just God, in his own good time, will give us the rightful result."
8/23/63
"...our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."
11/19/63 (from the Gettysburg Address)
"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel.
I add a word which was not in the verbal conversation. In telling this tale I attempt no compliment to my own sagacity. I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me. Now, at the end of three years struggle the Nation's condition is not what either party, or any man devised, or expected. God alone can claim it. Whither it is tending seems plain. I
f God now wills the removal of a great wrong, and wills also that we of the North as well as you of the South, shall pay for our complicity in that wrong, impartial history will find therein new cause to attest and revere the justice and goodness of God."
4/4/64
"it is also unsatisfactory to some that the elective franchise is not given to the colored man. I would myself prefer that it were now conferred on the very intelligent, and on those who serve our cause as soldiers."
April 11, 1865
Also consider:
"After the interview was over, Douglass left the White House with a growing respect for Lincoln. He was "the first great man that I talked with in the United States freely," Douglass said later, "who in no single instance reminded me of the difference between himself and myself, of the difference of color."
--"With Malice Towards None, p. 357 by Stephen Oates.
"Lincoln had Douglass shown in at once. "Here is my friend Douglass," the President announced when Douglass entered the room. "I am glad to see you," Lincoln told him. "I saw you in the crowd today, listening to my address." He added, "there is no man in the country whose opinion I value more than yours. I want to know hat you think of it." Douglass said he was impressed: he thought it "a sacred effort." "I am glad you liked it." Lincoln said, and he watched as Douglass passed down the [receiving] line. It was the first inaugural reception in the history of the Republic in which an American President had greeted a free black man and solicited his opinion."
Ibid., p. 412
Other sources: "Abraham Lincoln, Mystic Chords of Memory" published by the Book of the Month Club, 1984
and:
"Lincoln, Speeches and Writings, 1859-65, Libray of the Americas, Don E. Fehrenbacher, ed. 1989
Also:
Black Americans of the day sang and danced because of Abraham Lincoln. Today, all loyal Americans need to revere his memory. The readily record that shows he was the greatest American.
Walt
They knew no such thing. They clearly planned to make slavery the cornerstone of their society, and they said as much.
The reason the importation of slaves was not allowed was to protect the investments of those who already had alaves.
It was a typically cynical and low-down move by the slave holders.
I don't know if you are truly ignorant of the events of the day or not. But it is always very easy to show the secessionists for the dishonorable traitors and poltroons they were, and easy to show that the CSA was pretty much a bad joke.
I posted this thread to show how ridiculous all this CSA worship is.
Thanks for the assist.
And please--keep bumping the thread.
Walt
You've hit it just right.
It just sounded so funny when I read it, and I could just see your face of sarcasm or satire as you typed it.
Truth is funny many times, especially with the right timing or delivery.
Oh, and thanks for the added explanation.
Cheer for the New Year. Keep your chin up, bud. Regards. SOT
Thanks, and to you as well.
Walt
God did vindicate; he vindicated the Union.
Walt
Bull. A whole lot of Northern European-Americans were so angry at the prospect of being forced to fight Lincoln's war that a week of draft riots in NYC in 1863 left over 1,100 dead. The major cause of the NYC "draft riots" was intense anger among recent Irish immigrants about being forced to fight what they regarded as a war for the rich grandees of the North AND the black slaves.
The record also shows that those exponents of personal freedom in Richmond had to resort to a general draft a year before the United States government did. And a much greater percentage of the CSA army was provided for than in the Union Army. If memory serves 6% of Union troops were conscripted, as opposed to 21% in the CSA. And it was resentment of things like the draft that caused the CSA armies to melt away in desertion, espcially after Lincoln was re-elected.
Every person who reads these notes needs to call the neo-conferates on their lies and nonsense.
The CSA enlisted most of its original army for one year. In April, 1862, most of this army was ready to pack up and go home. This is what prompted conscription by the CSA.
Many of the Union soldiers who came forward in the spring of 1861 signed on for three years. Their enlistments expired in the Spring and Summer of 1864.
After three years of bloody war, with a new, costly campaign in the offing, they had an honorable out. All they had to do was go home. But they re-enlisted in large numbers. And the cause of the Union--of freedom, progress, and liberty for all, was sustained. During that summer, of course, the bloody battles of the Wilderness and Cold Harbor and many others were fought. Great numbers of these loyal and unselfish men were killed or maimed. In the fall, those who remained helped seal the re-election of President Lincoln.
It is for the memory of these men that CSA revision and lies must be opposed and exposed.
If you read these CSA threads, and you love this country and what it stands for, you need to go on the record. If enough people on FR do that, this hateful CSA crap will disappear from the site.
Walt
Sounds like they knew that slavery was winding down? In your fantasy world, perhaps. Looks like they were trying to defend it to the last to me.
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