Posted on 01/02/2002 1:15:38 PM PST by Theresa
There is considerable confusion about the Catholic teaching of salvation. I found this on the internet. It was written by a former Presbyterian who became Catholic as an adult. It should be easy to understand he explains the docterine very well. .........
The phrase (in Latin, "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" or "Outside the Church there is no salvation") is a very ancient one, going back to the very early days of Christianity. It was originally meant to affirm the necessity of baptism and Christian faith at a time when
(a) A number of Christians were being tempted under torture to renounce their faith and deny Christ. (He's talking about the Roman Empire and Nero's persecution of Christians, throwing them to lions and such.) (b) Large groups of Christians were being led into "pseudo-Christian" cult-type groups, which were actually just a front for pagan philosophy and religion. (Such as the cult of Mithras which I think was practiced around the time after Jesus died.)
In response, bishops repeated that, if a person were to be aware of the meaning of Christ and then freely deny him or reject him, they had essentially turned away from God and the salvation he offers.
As Christians, we believe that we are saved only through Jesus. As St. Peter reminds his audience in Acts 4:12: "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved." In most cases, this means that we believe baptism in water, in the name of the Trinity, is the fundamental requirement for salvation.
However, even from the beginning, the great Christian writer and teacher St. Augustine said that the salvation imparted through baptism can also be imparted through other means: specifically, through the "baptism of blood" (a non-Christian who dies defending Christian beliefs or holy places) and "the baptism of desire" (a non-Christian who has expressed a firm desire to become a Christian, and who shows all the signs of living a Christian life, but who dies before baptism). In both of those cases, the Church has always recognized that the Holy Spirit leads people to God in ways which we cannot always explain or document.
God is able to save anyone he chooses. We trust that he often does this is ways that are not obvious to us, within the hearts of individuals who are sincerely seeking the truth. Otherwise, it would imply that all of humanity was excluded from salvation before Christ came, and that much of humanity (which has not had the opportunity to hear the Christian message until recently) was doomed to be eternally separated from God. This would imply a very cruel and elitist God. Our belief as Christians and Catholics is that God desires the salvation of all people … even those who are not Christian. How he achieves that, however, is a mystery. But we know that our God is a loving God who would not allow people to suffer on account of an ignorance that they were not responsible for.
The Church teaches that baptism, faith, and a life lived in Christ are necessary for salvation. However, Vatican II also taught that, within every human heart, God places the law of conscience. Everybody has a deep sense of right and wrong which ultimately comes from God, and which will lead people to God if they attempt to follow their conscience faithfully. Because Jesus is God, those who move in the direction of God (even non-Christians) are ultimately moving in the direction of Jesus. And if they are moving in the direction of Jesus and His truth, ultimately they are expressing a desire for the salvation that God gives. The Church teaches that, while it is certainly easier to receive salvation as a Christian, it is not impossible to receive salvation in other religions.
This is a challenging situation: on one hand, we must be respectful of the good things to be found in other faiths, and encourage people to live their faiths with sincerity and love.
On the other hand, this does not mean that all religions are the same. We believe that Christ is the ultimate revealing of God to the world, and that the more we know about his message, the greater the chance that we will accept his offer and be saved. We must therefore continue to preach the message of the Gospel, and encourage interested non-Catholics to examine the claims of our faith, without in any way coercing or intimidating them.
Father Feeney was an American priest who, back in the 1940s, taught that if a person was not a Roman Catholic, they were condemned to hell. This has never been the accepted teaching of Catholicism, and Father Feeney was reprimanded by the Vatican for his mistaken understanding.
Nevertheless, there are groups which continue to hold to this strict interpretation, even after the Pope and bishops have specifically rejected it.
The phrase "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" teaches us that salvation is only through Christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life. But God is able to save whomever he pleases, whether they are baptized in the Roman Catholic Church or not.
It is important to remember that "the Church" in this phrase does not refer exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church. Salvation is a great gift, and God is a loving Father who wants all of his children to receive it. How he works this out, however, we will only understand in heaven. That is why, whenever we quote "Outside the Church, there is no salvation", we should also remember that "God is in no way bound by the sacraments."
Until then, we continue to proclaim Jesus as Lord (evangelization) and engage in respectful dialogue with followers of other religions, to discover the truths that God had revealed to them to guide them toward salvation, and to share with them the truth as we have discovered it in Christ.
This is speaking, obviously, directly to you.
Hank
Saying that the Word of God is based upon interpretation is just like saying we have a "living Constitution."
Have you read where scripture interprets scripture?
No matter. I said it, and I stand by it. All unbelievers and faux-Christians go directly to hell.
Got it? You can jump on me all you want, makes me no nevermind. The words I use are not mine, so in essence, you are attacking the Word.
Take that up with the Author.
The verses I gave from Isaiah show that man cannot compact God to fit their own ideological bent. His ways are unfathomable outside of what He directly reveals to us. So, in other words, give it up. We mortal men can never decipher His mind. But know that He never contradicts Himself.
I can only give you what He has said. I didn't say it, HE DID.
Deal with it. Just like I deal with it.
It is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Period.
The New Testament couldn't be clearer on this.
Then there's the issue of apostolic succession. Is true apostolic succession determined by the lineage of ceremonial ordinations, or is it determined by the lineage of pure doctrine?
Preferably one would have both, but, I would have to argue that a doctrinal lineage is more important than a ceremonial lineage. Jesus' words "for whoever is not against us is for us...Mark 9:40" argue in favor of a doctrinal lineage.
I don't think I want to do that, thank you. I see what it did to you, and I don't want that to happen to me.
I didn't know a thin skin was part of being a Calvinist.
(If you look down you will see one of your legs is a little longer than the other.)
Hank
What do you and your wife believe now?
Becky
i.e. v:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Of course I understand why you like changing this verse:)
Becky
The bible teaches us that those who truly seek him WILL FIND HIM. It also tells us in Roms. 1:20 That man is without excuse. So I feel it's pretty clear, it has to be, because He tells us in 1 John 5:13 that we can know for sure we are saved. Now the judgement of unbelievers does rest in God's hands, but we can make judgements about peoples beliefs being according to the bible or not.
You know, I look at it as, if God had given any kind of indication to us humans that he was going to cut us some slack in different areas, we would have taken unheard of advantage of him and pushed to the limit, we pretty much do that now, right. So he had to be very strict as a parent who disciplines a child sets guidlines but doesn't tell the kid he will give him some leeway.
So yes the final judgemet is God's, but he left us enough information in his Word to know exactly where he wants us to be in or beliefs, service and worship of Him.
Becky
What do you and your wife believe now?
Well, for one thing, we believe in, "invincible ignorance," which we see every day almost everywhere. It is now the main result of a public school education.
But in fact, I had never heard of that as a theological explanation of anything, though it perfectly fits with many other fine Catholic superstitions.
Our beliefs would be called Protestant or Christian by others, and my wife usually just answers Christian or born-again Christian to most who ask her "what she is." However, we neither belong to or attend an organized church. Our religious beliefs are based solely on the Bible, and we do not accept any of the doctrines smuggled into Christian dogma by Augustine and propagated by Calvin, Luther, and Wesley.
Basically, we believe the Bible is inerrant and divinely inspired, the deity of Jesus Christ, the blood atonement, (but not "as payment for sin"), salvation through faith in the finished work of Christ, (but believe salvation actually changes a person and that continuing a life of sin proves one isn't saved), the literal return of Christ, (but not the rapture) and so on. I never call myself a Christian and believe ultimately all organized "Christian" churches become apostate and are well on their way now.
We are very happy that you have escaped the clutches of superstition, whatever you beleive now. Which, by the way, we would be interested in knowing.
Hank
(For a somewhat harsh and sarcastice view of my beleifs, see:
If you find it offensive or disconcerting, just ignore it.
You yourself had to perform a 'work' by saying "yes"; as Mary did, to God. The Gospel is loaded with people who accepted, such as Saul of Taursus, and those who rejected such as the rich young man in the Gospel of Luke.
There are many books about the subject that will explain much better than I can, and provide Biblical reference.
My husband and I are Independent Fundamental Bible Believers. We beleive that salvation is thru trusting in the sacrafice that Jesus made for us on the cross to take away our sins.(John 14:6) Nothing I do will save me, or keep me saved(Gal.), I am in his hands now, and he will never forsake me.(John 10:28)
I have learned more about the catholic faith in the last 9 months from being on FR then I ever did in school, of course all the catholics say everything I say I learned is not what the catholics really believe, I was either not paying attention, or that during the era I was in school there was alot of bad teaching going on in some schools, I just misunderstood, or was just plain stupid. I graduated in 1972, But from reading these threads I don't think even the catholics know what the church teaches exactly.
I just found out on another thread, that the "Rock" in Matt. 16:16, is now being taught that it was not only Peter, but Peter and his confession, That is totally contradictory to everything I have heard up until yesterday. Supposedly the new catechism has changed the wording. How does anyone stay in something that changes so drastically from day to day. My whole family, other then husband and children, are still devout catholics, and I am just trying to find a way to reach them. But they won't discuss it.
Oh well, it's been nice talking to you, God Bless.
Becky
Becky
Regarding the sacraments giving us grace, when Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit descended upon Him. When Saul was baptized 'there fell from his eyes as it were scales' (Acts 9) indicating that his spiritual blindness was over. These are examples of the grace, supernatural grace, working in the sacraments.
In confirmation we also recieve grace. At pentecost the apostles recieved the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. The apostles Peter and John laid their hands on the Christians in Samaria, and they recieved the Holy Ghost (Acts 8. 11-17)
In the Holy Eucharist Jesus gives us Himself "The bread that I will give you is my flesh." "Except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood, hath life everlasting and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed."
We believe that the manna in the Old Testament was a prefigurment of the Holy Eucharist. The manna fed the Israelites on their journey through the desert. It was a supernatural food. The supernatural bread given to Elias gave him the strength to travel forty days to Mount Horeb. The multiplication of the loaves and the water made wine at Canna also show us that grace is working in this sacrement.
The effects of recieving Holy Communion and the grace derived from same, have filled volumes. The grace in us is the "life" that Jesus mentions when He says that unless you eat His flesh and drink His blood you have no life in you.
Becky
It's nice being catholic because we can draw on 2000 years of history, tradition & writings on the subjects.
Now that we've had a dialogue I would hope that even though you may not agree with what the Church teaches, you can see the biblical reference for what we do (as humble as what I have written is)
Like I said, there are many writers who can present the material in a much better way than I can.
I am not trying to be disagreeable, but I would like to point out that your history, traditions and writngs are from man.
It's nice being what you call a protestent, I call an IFBB (Indepentdent Fundamental Bible Believe) because I trust in the Holy Spirit to teach me and He is truly infalible which I would hope you would agree with")
Becky
Thanks! Hank
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.