Red-Light Camera: I've Been Ticketed (Legal Help Needed)

January 2, 2002 | Christopher Knight AKA Freeper "Darth Sidious"

[Torie]

Try to find the guy in the other car to testify for you. Take it to court. Make the case that your traffic violation was a matter of necessity. That is a valid defense I would think. Either you will be believed or you will not. If the cop doesn't show up, you will win by default. Keep hope alive.

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

"The judge should laugh then rip up the ticket."

Either you have not spent a lot of time in a real courtroom, or you deal with an easily-amused subset of judges!

Hint: They hardly EVER laugh (unless they made the joke).

[Joe Hadenuf]

Go back and shoot the camera out.

[agitator]

If you get this worked up at red-light cameras, you ought to read this to see what you've been missing.

[RightWhale]

Here's what to do so as to conserve your resources for the main fight.

1. Pay the fine, and
2. Run for mayor.

[tomakaze]

fight it, full jury trial. if you loose pay the fine in unrolled pennys that have been stored in a bait bucket for two weeks.

[Southack]

"I'm counting no less than 3, possibly 4 violations of the U.S. Constitution on the citation in front of me. "

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Help me understand, how does a state law or traffic camera violate the federal Constitution? Is that power explicitly prohibited to the states in our Constitution?

I'm presuming that you were on a public road, in a state licensed car, with a state-issued driver's license.

[holyscroller]

A month or two ago, there were a couple long posts on FR about these Yellow Light traps. (They were giving out the fines if you entered the intersection on Yellow.) The company behind this racket was Lockheed. If my memory serves me right, they got 85% of the take, and they anticipated some outrageous sum, something like 5 BILLION a year income from these traps. Thousands of these trickets were thrown out somewhere. Do a search under Yellow lights or yellow signals, instead of red.

Also, there are a couple good books out by ex-cops on how to beat traffic tickets, much of the same logic or legalese might apply here. Also, for the more entrepreneural, a good book could be written on how to fight these, if you can actually figure that out, or compile a lot of success stories.

[airedale]

Pay the $50 if you value your time at anything over $5 per hour and be glad it's only $50. It will take you far more than 10 hours just to do the research and document it. Then there is the time in court and getting ready for the trial. Out here it's over $271. If you want to take traffic school so it doesn't go on your record then you pay the fine + $ to pay for the privilege of going to the school and then $$ for the school itself..

If not then time the lights and compare them to other lights. Find out where the sensors are and where they are supposed to be (one city they put them in the wrong place and were getting to many people because of that. When it was discovered they had to go back and repay everyone and wipe out the tickets. You also need to get a copy of the traffic planning report for that intersection which shows what they planned for the intersection in terms of times etc. You also need to compare the yellow light sequence against other similar intersections and what their traffic plans call for.

Then you need to research all the case law on this not only in your state but all states especially those that tossed out the camera convictions. Those are probably winning arguments if you get the right judge.

Last thing to remember that no one wants this to go to trial especially a jury trial. Most courts are very crowded and have backlogs. So do the DA’s and who ever would have to show up from the Police to testify about the camera and how it’s been tested before and after your ticket and shown to be accurate. Neither do you really. They explained it to me when I was called to jury duty one year where we were to hear DUI cases. . Each side tries to get the best deal they can as quickly as they can. If they can’t cut a deal then it goes to trial. At that point both the judge and the DA are pissed that you are wasting their time and you’d better win or the fine will probably be the maximum allowed to teach you and anyone else a lesson.

If you decide to go to trial then pick the one where it’s you the DA and the judge. Plead guilty with an explanation and a pleas for mercy. They can let you off with a warning, give you the fine you were supposed to get + court costs or toss the book at you in terms of the fine

As I said in the first paragraph pay the fine and get on down the road.

[wattsmag2]

Don't forget the insurance points. Far more than 50 bucks

[Deep_6]

re:
"....To make a long story short, I got caught by the camera...
.....And if I rolled over now, and let this go on, what kind of
incremental damage would I be doing to my children's freedoms?...."

The most damage to your children would be to show that
even when you're in the wrong, you fight to get out of it.

Today's kids took an example from a sleaze-bag president that
wormed his way out of every wrong and illegal position he
got himself into. If the parents don't start teaching right from
wrong, and the responsibility of paying the consequences when
guilty, who the hell is going to teach them? Some president?

The lights may or may not be found to be unconstitutional
[I feel they are via our 4th and 5th Amendments], but if guilty
of the infraction, the consequences should be faced now.

If the cameras are found to be unconstitutional later, you can
then seek remedy.

Right?

[Bogey78O]

hehe...maybe we should get a collection going to offset any losses if he loses.

It's penny ante extortion. No different than eliminating the rights we feel that are unnecessary. They make it 50$ so it's not worth the fight.

[Myrddin]

Check the website run by Roger Hedgecock. Roger successfully fought against the red light cameras in San Diego. Some other pretty sharp lawyers jumped into the effort and found state statutes for explicitly forbid the red light cameras. In particular, the way the cameras calculate your speed, then interpolate your position relative to the limit line when the light goes red was deemed a "speed trap" under California law. Further investigation determined that the vendor in charge of the cameras had purposely shortened the yellow light interval to enhance the revenues for specific intersections. All cameras are shutdown in San Diego following the investigations. The cameras actually CAUSED a major increase in rear end collisions as drivers jammed the brakes on to avoid entering the intersection on a yellow. There was never any documented proof that accidents were decreased by the cameras.

[jwh_Denver]

There have been good posts as to tell your story and I might add with humility because these judges have heard all the stories. What will count here is if you are believed. You might also check on the consequences of a jury trial and the same thing would apply there. Here in Aurora, CO there is a heftier fine for a jury trial if found quilty. But all it takes is one "not quilty" to get your case dismissed. Personally I would not mention any "Constitution" stuff because the judge could care less about that and I think may hurt you anyway. One more thing that has been mentioned is a good driving record. If it is good most likely the DA will plea out your case with a few points off your record and make it a non moving violation. I got stung with 6 points but the DA pleaed it down to a broken headlight for 1 point. What knocked me out was that I had to tell the judge I was guilty for a broken headlight - perjury in my book. Imagine that, the DA gets me to lie to a judge. (the judge was in another room). My feeling here is that the more technical you get with the timing of the lights etc the more unlikely you'll win the case. But all of this is just my opinion. Hope you make it out clean. Let us know what happens.

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

"Don't forget the insurance points. Far more than 50 bucks"

Excellent point! Depending on your insurer, make and model of car, and your age, sex and (to a lesser extent)your driving record, this "50 Buck ticket" could very easily cost you well over a thousand dollars over the next three years.

[Myrddin]

Another legal point observed by Hedgecock: a defendant has the right to face his accusers and cross examine them. A red light camera is a machine. It can not be cross examined.

[Demidog]

Go to court. Plead not guilty. Ask for a trial.

It would help if you had witnesses that saw the other car behind you. But certainly you'll want to issue subpeona's for the original pictures, the maintanence records of the camera so as to know when it was last syncronized with the light.

You also might want to file a motion for dismissal on the grounds that the clandestine nature of the camera denies you your right to present witnesses on your behalf. Because you didn't know that you were being "charged with a crime" you had no way of realizing the value of the people who were in your vicinity as witnesses. In essence they have denied your right to a fair trial. All of the people in the area who might have testified on your behalf are long gone.

Furthermore, you should look up the rules of arrest and evidence for law enforcement officers in your state.

They do not have a witness in fact. The camera itself cannot be cross examined. If they don't have a witness that you can cross-examine, how can you have a fair trial?

If there is no citizen who can swear out a complaint that you have caused harm, how can they peroperly charge you with a crime??

A lawyer could better answer when the proper time is to file a motion for dismissal.

Nobody in the court room at your trial can testify that you actually ran a red light. In fact perhaps the best angle is the witness angle. If the judge tries to argue that the camera is the witness and that you cannot argue with the camera, he would be testifying against you and must then allow himself to be cross-examined or open this up for a motion for mistrial. The judge cannot testify against you and also judge your guilt or innocence.

The interesting thing is, SOMEBODY is going to have to be and advocate for their side. It won't be a cop who witnessed the event at the scene. Who will it be?

[jslade]

Months ago, I saw a link here on FR to a site that sold license plat covers that, although transparent from behind, would make it impossible to be filmed from an angle. Anyone have a link.

[Demidog]

The most damage to your children would be to show that even when you're in the wrong, you fight to get out of it.

He wasn't wrong. He's not fighting to get out of a ticket. He's fighting for what's right.

[Demidog]

If the cop doesn't show up, you will win by default. Keep hope alive.

That doesn't work here. There was no cop. In fact, who was it that wrote the ticket? Was it a machine or was it somebody who reviewed the film?