Minneapolis Police Kill Somalian Man

newsday.com ^ | March 11, 2002, 1:45 PM EST | AP

[11Bush]

With the juices flowing, it is hard enough to hit center mass. You miss, maybe the perp doesn't; if you shoot, shoot to kill, period.

..saying the man was mentally ill.

Not no more!

[Drew68]

but why not shoot to wound or disable?

Cops are taught to shoot to stop. That means upper-body.

The "shoot to wound" is more of a Hollywood myth than reality. People die all the time from getting shot in the shoulder, hip or legs. In fact a well placed shot to the leg, severing the femoral artery, and they better call a hearse because you will be bleeding to death pretty quickly.

Furthermore, it's harder to place shots to the legs and arms. These rounds can miss and wind up in someone's living room.

Anyways, he didn't drop his machete. I've heard of cops shooting people armed with steak knives. If he had done what he was told, he'd still be living the good life in America.

[jrewingjr]

I think the cops put the rounds right where they were needed. Remember, the Taser was used without success. Knee-capping him would have put him in pain, but it wouldn't have kept him from continuing to swing the machete at them. Were they supposed to shoot him in the elbows? Would you want to cuff the guy while he's still swinging at you with a blade?

Until cops are issued Marlin Perkins-style tranquilizer dart guns to knock perps unconcious, cops in similar situations are warranted in using deadly force.

[FreedomPoster]

just playing softass liberal devil's advocate here....but why not shoot to wound or disable?

Surely you're not serious. Humans generally don't die instantly from one or two, and sometimes even 5 or 10 or 15, handgun hits. A person with an edged weapon within 15' of you can be on you and slicing a vital artery in a second or three. Good police/military doctrine says to not let an enemy with an edged weapon get within 25' or 30'.

Go down to the range and shoot the "hand" of a target consistantly, under the simulated stress of having a homicidal maniac with a machete running at you (maybe take a lap or three around the parking lot first). Good luck.

Don't believe the crap you see on TV and in the movies regarding wound effects and firearms accuracy under stress.

[chadmaster]

A gun is not designed to wound. It is designed to kill. One does not fire a gun with the intention to wound, because one does not fire a gun at someone unless deadly fore is justified.

Second, one hit from a machette and you are finished. I use one to prune trees. A machette is a fine tool, but a deadly serious weapon.

If someone threatened me with one, I would definitely feel my life is in danger, and I would fight back with everything I had.

[VOA]

bump

[wardaddy]

Yep....and one day if you don't stop and do what you're told by some JBT wanting your weapon, then you and that shot out Somali can commiserate.

[wardaddy]

Sorry to see such gung ho accolades from gun enthusiasts about a group of cops shooting to shreds a nut armed with a machete from distance.

You guys better be careful with your seat belts or any sudden moves when the JBTs show up for your guns.

BTW, I'm quite familiar with firearms use under stress and have been fired upon. I also have the scars on my body to prove that I'm acquainted with knives as well. I don't base any of my opinings on TV movies homeboys, I've lived it.

One simply does not have to shoot everyone who is a threat everytime by default. If I lived that way, I'd need to have my own cemetary to bury them all in.

How many cops have you known of killed by steak knives or machetes btw...is there an epidemic going on out there I'm unaware of?

Barrel stroker regards...LOL

[FreedomPoster]

Where is it written that cops have to risk their lives to tackle and overpower a nutcase waving around a machete, who ignores demands it be dropped? I'm as against misuse of police power as anyone. This isn't it.

[mamelukesabre]

What's wrong with these cops? If they were *real* good guys, they would have simply shot the knife out of his hands. Shame on them. LOL

[wardaddy]

Where is it written that cops can shoot anyone they deem a threat? You will have to live by the very rules of engagement you're cheerleading when they come for your guns. Police should by their nature use minimal force necessary to achieve their objective.

[hopespringseternal]

Where is it written that cops can shoot anyone they deem a threat?

Anybody can shoot someone they deem a threat.

A guy walking down the street with a machete chanting "Allahu ackbar!" is going to have a real short life expectancy. And no juror with a U.S. zip code is going to convict anybody for shooting him.

[wardaddy]

I don't mind a dead Somali in all frankness and maybe that's what's turning all you folks into gung ho Marshall Dillons. There are some fine cops out there but when you've got a group of cops surrounding some irate nut and they all just shoot him to pieces from behind their cars because they "were trained" to do that by the book....I have questions. They will use that same book against us one day...are you ready?

Contrast that bravado with Columbine where all the stormtroopers sought cover outside licking their cajones while a couple of pimple faced geeks went about there business.

The way they treat even a lowly nutjob Somali will one day affect us all. I'm glad to know you feel safer now...I don't.

[Johnny Gage]

Their already working on this. INS deported a handful of somalians last week.

[chadmaster]

Did they not try a "stun gun" (I am assuming they meant Taser) first? It sounds like the police did try an alternative. We don't have all of the details, but from what I have heard I probably would have fired. There is just something about a guy who can withstand 50,000 volts and still threaten someone with a machette that makes me think he is a lost cause. Of course, I don't know how to disarm someone with a machette, so this affects my take on the case. I'd love to see the report when it comes out.

[hopespringseternal]

"Shooting to wound" is a statement of complete ignorance. It ignores how firearms operate, how they wound, the effects of those wounds, and our legal system.

The way they treat even a lowly nutjob Somali will one day affect us all. I'm glad to know you feel safer now...I don't.

Wandering down the street armed and acting deranged is something no society in the world will tolerate.

[csvset]

Some more info.. Somali's death is first by police after first using Taser guns

Somali's death is first by police after first using Taser guns

Chris Graves

Star Tribune

 

Published Mar 13, 2002

Probes fired by a stun weapon may have been deflected by a Minneapolis man's clothing, reducing the weapon's effectiveness during a confrontation that ended with the Somali immigrant's death, the weapon's maker said Tuesday.

Steve Tuttle said he doubts that the Advanced Taser itself failed. He speculated that Abu Kassim Jeilani's clothing kept the electrical current delivered by the Taser from disabling him.

Taser gun

Mike Zerby

Star Tribune

Jeilani, 28, whose family had been advised by the FBI to get him help and who was described by a doctor in court records as psychotic, was shot by six Minneapolis police officers near the corner of E. Franklin Av. and Chicago Av. S. at 2:19 p.m. Sunday.

A police sergeant spotted Jeilani walking on Franklin carrying a machete in one hand and a crowbar in the other, and alerted officers specially trained to deal with mentally ill people.

The shooting of Jeilani raised the ire of many in the Somali community who have charged that police treat them unfairly. It focused attention on how Minneapolis officers treat the mentally ill and on their decisions to use deadly force.

Jeilani's death is the first time that someone has been killed by officers after attempts were made to use the Advanced Taser weapons, which deliver a powerful electrical current that locks up the muscles of the person it is used on. Officials have said that officers shot Jeilani twice with the Tasers, but that it did not immobilize him.

Officers repeatedly told Jeilani to drop the machete and crowbar as they let him walk more than seven blocks and directed traffic away from him.

Several Somali groups have said witnesses told them Jeilani was holding the knife and crowbar at his side, but one police official disputed that Tuesday.

"I know he was waving the machete and made a few swipes at the patrol car," said Inspector Sharon Lubinski, who oversees the Third Precinct, where Sunday's shooting happened.

Lubinski, who was at the scene shortly after the shooting, said one officer told her Jeilani hit a squad car with the knife. But she said she does not know if that is the action that directly led to the shooting.

"It was contiguous with that," she said. "He had taken a stand at that point."

It remained unclear Tuesday how many times he was shot.

Jeilani's brother took him to Hennepin County Medical Center on Jan. 23 after he began hearing voices. He had told people that he had an appointment with President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney and wrote a letter saying "something bad was going to happen on Jan. 25," according to Hennepin County court records.

Apparently the incident was reported to the FBI. Agents visited Jeilani's home and suggested that his family take him to the Medical Center's crisis intervention center.

He was taken to Regions Hospital in St. Paul where, according to the court records, he described hearing voices. "They talk in my body; only God knows . . . God in my body. Everbody dies on 1-25-02. They make my hand write. I am being controlled."

A doctor said he was psychotic and put him on medication.

After a Feb. 5 hearing, Jeilani was released for 90 days. He was instructed to continue to take his medication, stay in contact with a social worker and attend all appointments with his psychiatrist.

It was unclear if he had stopped taking his medication before Sunday. Family members have said it appeared that he was improving and left his Minneapolis apartment around noon, saying he would return in 20 minutes.

Hennepin County Sheriff's Office investigators were continuing to interview witnesses to the incident, said sheriff's spokeswoman Roseann Campagnoli. The Sheriff's Office, as a matter of routine, investigates all fatal Minneapolis police shootings. That investigation will probably take months, and results will not be made public until the case is closed.

The officers involved in the shooting remained on a routine three-day administrative leave Tuesday.

Two of the six officers were part of a group of 77 Minneapolis officers who have received 40 hours of training in how to deal with the mentally ill. As part of that training, they were each given four hours of training in how to use the Advanced Taser, which was first used last summer.

The Taser, developed by Taser International, is battery powered and fires two copper wires with fishhooks on the end. It can be used at a distance of about 20 feet from a target, Tuttle said.

One wire delivers a positive charge, the other a negative, and both wires must attach to the target or clothing. The current is designed to override the central nervous system, leaving a person unable to move for at least five seconds.

Tuttle said no device is 100 percent effective.

Authorities have said that Jeilani was shot with a Taser once and fell, but got up and kept on walking. In a second attempt, an officer fired a Taser at him, but the current did not seem to affect him.

Tuttle said he thinks, from studying similar cases brought to his company by police departments, that the fishhook probably hooked into Jeilani's jacket and did not stay close enough to his body, when he fell, for him to feel the charge. In order for the current to work, both wires must stay attached to the person or the clothing and be no farther than 2 inches away from the body.

Cold weather can decrease the power of the Taser's batteries. Minneapolis police use alkaline batteries but are discussing switching to nickel metal hydride rechargeable batteries, which are less affected by cold.

"I wish we had a magic bullet," Tuttle said. "We are about as close as we can get. No one makes the magic bullet."

Maj. Sam Cochran, head of the Memphis Police Department crisis intervention team, on which the Minneapolis team is modeled, said many products are available to help police restrain people without using deadly force. They include nets, foam, glue, rubber-coated bullets, bean bags fired from shotguns and chemical sprays. Each method can be useful in certain situations, but all have drawbacks.

"Nothing meets every category, and some things just aren't practical," Cochran said. "I suppose you could sit and judge each of these things for each use, but to carry all of these things to cover all situations you would need a large semitrailer behind every squad car."

But he added: "You do the best with what you've got and use your training. The training is the best tool officers have."

Staff writer Howie Padilla contributed to this story.

-- Chris Graves is at cgraves@startribune.com .

[wardaddy]

All these gung ho SWAT/SORT wannabes on this thread will be easy pickings when the JBTs come for our firearms oneday. In the name of law and order and the cops do no wrong mentality, they'll probably all just roll over in the street and submit their weapons like good little citizens.

If the cops had the time to try to Taze the nut then they also had time to shoot him somewhere besides his upper torso from behind their cars wearing their bullet proof vests with their high tech weapons. Brave ass SWAT jocks....yeah right.