Posted on 03/12/2002 9:37:30 AM PST by Willie Green
Edited on 09/03/2002 4:50:05 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
Nah, ain't likely. ONLY tax schemes written by the rich for the rich and their cronies will ever even be debated.
I'm more than happy to debate with you George, as long as you use rational and somewhat verifiable numbers. What do you think we are doing now?
Nobody can debate or discuss tax with you as long as you insist on being so paranoid that you cannot even consider the numbers out there for revue.
If the social agenda of the "family" {or any other} is to be encouraged, then godgov should show expenditures rather than hide it in some tax code.
Absolutely George, so why do you insist on hiding taxes from citizens (i.e. voters) by pushing them into businesses where they cna only show up as inflation or lower income to individuals with no way for the average family to perceive or even begin to measure it.
As long as taxes are hidden away, and you insist on a $10,000 personal exemption for each person. How can people possible know the real cost of government in their lives.
We must . . . End Tax Slavery Now; Nov '97
by Jarret B. Wollstein
HOW MUCH DO YOU REALLY PAY?
According to the Tax Foundation, in 1994 the average American paid 22.4% of his or her income in federal taxes, plus 11.8% in state and local taxes - 34.2% total.
But that's just the beginning! Dr. James Payne of the University of California found that in addition to direct taxes we also pay huge, hidden taxes including:
- Compliance costs - record keeping, monies spent on tax planning, computers and software purchased to fulfill IRS requirements, etc.
- Enforcement costs - IRS audits, field investigations, service center corrections, criminal investigations, litigation, and forced collections.
- Emotional, moral and cultural costs - families forced onto welfare, time and creative energy lost figuring out how to avoid taxes, etc.
For every $1 we pay in direct taxes, we spend an additional $0.65 in compliance costs. And even that figure doesn't include the cost of import duties, license fees and other government regulations. For a typical U.S. family, the real cost of taxes and regulations is at least:
Federal taxes 22.4% of income
State & local taxes 11.8%
Compliance costs 22.2%
Regulatory costs 12.7%70.1% of your income is now consumed by government
Hmmmmm......
AG, Sure I do. And, most of that bloat PLUS hidden tax write offs are "given" to CERTAIN entities for SOCIAL engineering of one sort or another. ALL of this out of the pockets of private sector taxpayers. Can you imagine if the budget had to show ALL of godgov's expenditures rather than hide them in obscure write-offs? I would suggest that taxpayers would become more informed about government bloat and call for more reductions. Is the 26% you mentioned higher than the lowest rate today plus social security, or lower? I think lower. Peace and love, George.
AG, I would suggest that much more is spent for education than the numbers put out by a money grubbing entity of government. I know for instance that different government agencies "give" or do not give funds to schools depending on whether or not the locals adopt "voluntary" guidlines. But, no problem. If "federal" dollars aren't that important for education, then just stop those funds.
By the way, the three line tax forms one line of which has the percentage already there, leaving taxpaying entities only two lines to fill in, and the IRS only two lines to check would reduce workload dramatically, and allow high dollar leaches {The "Andersons" and other "auditors" and IRS agents} to become productive in private endeavors, and allow for them to be transformed into lobbying for lower taxes rates and less social engineering by godgov. Peace and love, George.
That is with no deductions of any kind, no exemptions of any kind personal or otherwise. Just raw percent of dollars taken by the federal govenment out of total income to pay for current programs.
The state and local budgets add on another 11-12% onto that figure.
Adjusting that federal rate for $10,000 per person exemption, no deductions, gives you a 43.9% actual tax rate on each household for income over the exemption you demand.
Including corporate profits into the picture, reduces that 43.9% to 42.6% on every individual and business in the nation on all income in excess of your exemption.
No exemptions whatsoever, yields a federal household tax rate of 24%.
Plus all corporate/business profits with no exemptions into the mix, reduces the tax rate to 23.3%
Take your pick George, I will not argue the numbers with you for they contain every possible source of income in them with no deductions whatsoever; Unless you can show a superior source for data, rather than simply spouting of figures out of your imagination.
AG, I would suggest that much more is spent for education than the numbers put out by a money grubbing entity of government.
I don't care what your imagination suggests George, show me hard data.
State & Local budgets are only 11-12% of national income. Schools are financed out of those State and local revenues.
Your imagined numbers simply do not wash against reality.
By the way, the three line tax forms one line of which has the percentage already there, leaving taxpaying entities only two lines to fill in, and the IRS only two lines to check would reduce workload dramatically, and allow high dollar leaches {The "Andersons" and other "auditors" and IRS agents} to become productive in private endeavors, and allow for them to be transformed into lobbying for lower taxes rates and less social engineering by godgov.
The numbers I have given you assume no compliance cost whatsoever, no regulation costs, just raw revenue to the government out of the total conceivable national income.
{The "Andersons" and other "auditors" and IRS agents} to become productive in private endeavors
George, who are you going to pay to audit incomes to make sure all income is truthfully reported & enforce your tax. You don't enforce it, I won't pay a penny of it, nor will anyone else with a brain.
AG, Notice that the "compliance" costs are within 2/10ths of the federal tax burden, and "regulatory" better than half of those. With the three lines required by the true flat tax {one already filled out}, 5 lines if a ten thousand deduction is given off the top of gross income of EVERY taxpaying entity, "middle" class folks would mostly be able to do their own taxes, and so would most "high" class folks. Course, H&R Block and others would go out of business as would most if not all of the bean counters at the IRS, and this would be a MAJOR deduction to most taxpaying entities. Also allowing for the ACTUAL downsizing of government at all levels. THAT is why it ain't gonna happen. Could get rid of the property assessors at the local level too. Peace and love, George.
AG, I would suggest that much more is spent for education than the numbers put out by a money grubbing entity of government.
If that's true George the tax rates I have calculated are too low.
Not paying enough taxes to cover the cost programs they have passed simply means government will print dollars and inflate the economy to make up the difference.
Course you could reduce the size of government and deal with the problem properly but you are more interested in your tax system than actually putting the effort it takes to actually reduce government by getting Congress Critters and the like to repeal programs.
AG, That will be unnecessary with the new "smart" cards that will record EVERY transaction of funds changing hands through godgov's approved {licensed} middlemen. No problem. Is THAT why you guys are so scared of a flat tax based on "income from whatever source derived", and in favor of a sales type of tax that STILL will be recorded on the "smart" cards that ARE in our future? Peace and love, George.
Sound good to me, that'll clear $59 billion from a $2000 billion dollar budget. That'll reduce your "Federal" tax rates all of 0.08 percentage points.
Wheezer's stupid tactic of misrepresenting MY position on taxation was addressed directly back on reply #29. Beyond that, he is off-topic with his NRST propaganda and worthy of the "flying-monkey" label.
P, I imagine Willie gets a bit tired of the demagogy directed his way, and occasionally responds in kind. Of course, his responses have never escalated to the savagery directed at him for pointing out differences of opinion. Peace and love, George.
AG, That will be unnecessary with the new "smart" cards that will record EVERY transaction of funds changing hands through godgov's approved {licensed} middlemen
Oh!!, now you advocate the economics of the Beast in Revelations do you?
Still doesn't do a thing for barter with my neighbor George. Under you system, with no one watching the store, and no one to enforce the tax. A smart card is abosolutely valueless to government.
You see, there are no gov middle men around, without the goons to enforce your law.
in favor of a sales type of tax that STILL will be recorded on the "smart" cards that ARE in our future?
Only if you let your godgov do it. Which appears to be what you are advocating to try to collect your tax. Though I don't know who is going to enforce your tax, as you don't intend to pay anyone to do so. It appears to be irrelavent in anycase.
AG, Notice that the "compliance" costs are within 2/10ths of the federal tax burden,
George, thats the combined compliance costs of both state&local tax systems as well as federal.
22.2 % * .65 = 14.43% federal compliance costs
11.8% * .65 = 7.67% state & local compliance costs
total state & federal compliance costs = 14.43 + 7.67 = 21.1%
George that is why I do not trust your analysis. You cannot carry out simple arithmetic, you do not attempt to figure out how the numbers are calculated, you do not even read the matterial presented.
Now what is your point, compliance costs are a heavy burden in any system that demands accuracy of all income to be computed "whatever source derived".
I do not use those compliance numbers to calculate the tax rates for your "flat" tax. I assume those costs are 0 in your magical no enforcement system.
Course, H&R Block and others would go out of business as would most if not all of the bean counters at the IRS, and this would be a MAJOR deduction to most taxpaying entities.
Compliance costs are not paid by the government George not in the federal budget to decrease tax rates. Those folks will just get other jobs, and be taxed for the programs that do not go away simply by changing the tax system, just as they are taxed now on income they get.
Also allowing for the ACTUAL downsizing of government at all levels.
It hasn't happened yet George, human nature is such that it is unlikely to happen as long as Congress Critters can buy votes with government handouts.
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