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1 posted on 03/30/2002 7:29:39 PM PST by milestogo
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To: milestogo
I thought Pakistan never recieved any of the 16 F-16's they purchased, I believe they are still in storage in Arizona
2 posted on 03/30/2002 7:37:51 PM PST by MJY1288
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To: milestogo
Which is why we don't export what we fly ourselves. At least not with the full avionics suite. That way, when the Chinese get something of ours from a 'friend', it isn't even the top of the line. (Although it would be in China.)
3 posted on 03/30/2002 7:38:28 PM PST by 11B3
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To: milestogo
Actually, the latest Chinese jet fighter that will soon enter production won't be using much in the way of F-16 technology. You're forgetting that the Chinese have bought a bunch of Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker fighters (and has a license and the blueprints to produce the plane on their own), and those are very modern designs. Indeed, the new Chinese fighter will use a Russian-built Lyulka Saturn jet engine with a steerable exhaust nozzle for very high manueverability.
4 posted on 03/30/2002 7:39:24 PM PST by RayChuang88
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To: milestogo
The Saga of the Indonesian F-16 Sale

In 1990, the U.S. government sold Pakistan 28 F-16 fighter/bomber jets for $658 million. Pakistan paid---in part with U.S. military aid---but America never delivered the aircraft because of a U.S. law barring arms transfers to Pakistan if Pakistan was attempting to build a nuclear weapon. In 1991, the Bush Administration determined that Pakistan was, in fact, building a nuclear weapon.

8 posted on 03/30/2002 8:03:00 PM PST by PhilDragoo
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To: milestogo
The Chinese don't need help from Pakastan. The Israelis have been helping them for a while now with weapons development. The Red Chinese have fielded an IR air to air missile is a copy of the Israeli Python III.

I'm not an Israel basher, but it is irritating to have them helping one of our prime opponents when we are Israel's biggest supporter.

10 posted on 03/30/2002 8:09:25 PM PST by USNBandit
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To: milestogo
Their aircraft all looked like they have just been slapped together regardless of what they are copied from. Their copies of pretty good Russian jets all look like they are about to fall apart.
12 posted on 03/30/2002 8:22:12 PM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: milestogo
This story probably isn't worth noting.

It appears to have beeb written by someone totally unfamiliar with military matters.

U.S.-supplied F-6 aircraft
Not really. If the US had supplied F-6s they would have been the old Douglas Skyray naval fighters of the early '50s.

The Pak aircraft are Shenyang F-6s which are Chinese-copy MiG-19s.

When F-7PG sale was announced back in March 2001 it was reported to be for "four squadrons" so more than 22 aircaft will be eventually involved.

And the upgraded F-7/Mig-21 is not as out of date as the 1955 first flight would indicate. With the new wing and new engine it's probably a F-20 Tigershark or IAI Kfir equivilent- late 70s standard, and still reasonable 2d line equipment today.

What he did not say was that the new jet's weapon stations are patterned after those on the American-built F-16s Pakistan bought before they were hit with U.S. sanctions in 1990. How did the Chinese know how to match the F-16 fittings? Because Pakistan secretly transferred one to China for reverse engineering.
Dunno what he's talking about. If it's missile launch rails or store hardpoints this is not exactly 21st Century technology. And the Chicoms have been able to build Sidewinder compatible hardpoints since they accquired a couple of Sidewinders back in the '50s.

20 posted on 03/31/2002 4:35:56 AM PST by Oztrich Boy
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To: milestogo
Judging from many of the posts, it would seem China has inferior, laughable fighter technology, so I guess China no longer presents a threat. Or am I wrong?

In any case, China is rapidly modernizing its military and, if they don't have viable fighters now, they will likely have them at some future time because all of China is industrializing and modernizing. Give it a few decades, and China will come close to filling the industrialization gap, just as Japan has.

Like all less advanced nations, China will not try to re-invent the wheel but borrow technologies from those who already have it to close the technological gap sooner than it otherwise could, much like Japan did with its "borrow and improve" strategy. Along its own process of development, every culture borrows things from other superior cultures. Romans borrowed from Greeks, N. Europeans borrowed from Romans, Japanese borrowed from Americans, etc. This is a normal occurrence in world history.

I read recently that Israel's arms industry is about the only part of Israel's economy that is still doing well -- thanks to China because China is the biggest customer of Israel's arms industry. The rest of Israel's economy is in shambles (stock market and real estate values plunging, tourism down, etc.). Arms are the only bright spot.

Americans don't like Israel's selling weapons to China, but they need to understand that Israel has its own national economic interests independent of those of the U.S. In actuality, Israel's trade with China is quite comprehensive and accelerating quickly, covering not only arms but all sorts of other technology, industrial goods, agricultural technology, financials, etc. Israelis are smart and know China's economy will be big in the future and, by nurturing its own trade relations with China independent of America's, Israel is ensuring good, comprehensive economic and political relations with China in the future as China's economy continues to grow.

Likewise, Russia is also fostering economic ties with China, especially in regard to arms as China accounts for 60% of the Russian arms industry's revenues. But more broadly, Russia and China are the perfect economic pair in the future, because Russia has many of the resources that China needs as its economy grows (oil, gas, timber, metals, etc.) and China has the big market that can absorb and consume all of those resources and, thereby, make Russian businessmen and the Russian economy gloriously rich.

In the end, economics shapes history and the relations between countries. America itself does a great deal of business with China, more than either Israel or Russia. China has replaced Japan, Korea, Singapore, etc. as the source of cheap goods for American consumers for the next several decades to come. The ability to buy low-priced goods made in China will ensure Americans enjoy their high standard of living for the next 1-2 generations of Americans at least. No one forces American consumers to buy Chinese-made goods. They choose to voluntarily because they derive concrete economic benefits (such as keeping their household expenses low) from the purchase of cheap Chinese goods. So economics helps both Americans and Chinese. China's per-capita GDP has risen faster than in the past 20 years of capitalism than anything seen before in history, resulting in the lifting of hundreds of millions of Chinese out of poverty. According to the CIA World Fact Book, China's poverty rate today is just 16%.

China's economy, though, is rather unique in Asia in that exports account for only about 20% of China's GDP, compared to 40-70% for most other places in Asia like Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Singapore, etc. In other words, China's economy most resembles, of all countries in the world, America's because both America and China are giant domestic markets in themselves. This gives China relative immunity to slowing exports compared to most other Asian nations, whose economies are driven significantly by exports alone. What all this means is that, unlike most Asian nations, China truly has the capacity to become a self-sufficient, relatively stand-alone economy in the heart of the Asian landmass. The economic development of the Asian landmass was really inevitable, given the economic growth of the countries like Japan and Korea lying on the periphery of the Asian landmass over the past 50 years. Economic development was bound to travel westward.

30 posted on 04/02/2002 8:26:58 AM PST by intelman
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