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To: wtc911
If Israel represents a free society then I am missing something. I thought that certain people who were born in the state of Israel can't vote in their elections. Am I misinformed? I thought that there are roads and areas in Israel where only certain types of people born in Israel can travel. Am I misinformed about this too? If I am mistaken please direct me to a reliable source for the facts. If I am not mistaken then it is disingenuous to call Israel a free society.

1. The "disingenuous" part is to suggest that "democracy" equals "freedom"? First, though it is not directly germaine to the discussion here, you've revealed you need to understand this salient distinction, particularly considering the FORUM you're on: go understand the difference between a DEMOCRACY and a REPUBLIC. "Democracy" by no means equals freedom. There have been and are socialist states that have elections. We could have a FINE republic without universal suffrage! But that aside...

2. Re., ECONOMIC freedom, according to the HERITAGE Foundation, of 200 or so countries, Israel is a remarkable 54th despite the travails of being under Arab- and leftist-attack for 54 years, to wit:

Since its founding in 1948, Israel has technically been at war with most of its Arab neighbors. This has imposed a heavy defense burden that has been lightened only slightly by peace treaties with Egypt in 1979 and Jordan in 1994. Because of limited natural resources, Israel depends on imports of oil, grain, and many raw materials. It posts large current account deficits that are covered by transfer payments from abroad, as well as by foreign aid and foreign loans. Despite these economic difficulties, Israel has built a technologically advanced economy that has been helped by the influx of highly educated immigrants from the former Soviet Union. Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s Prime Minister from 1996 to mid-1999, made progress in reducing Israel’s dependence on American economic aid, agreeing to phase out $1.2 billion a year in U.S. economic aid over 10 years in exchange for an increase of half that amount in U.S. military aid. His ambitious plans for free-market reform were frustrated by the unstable nature of his coalition government. The Labor Party’s Ehud Barak, elected Prime Minister in May 1999, also has been weakened by coalition bickering and has made little progress in reforming Israel’s large state sector. Inflation is declining; however, Israel’s regulation score is worse than it was last year. As a result, Israel’s overall score remains unchanged this year.

3. Now, much to the dismay and chagrin of those who, as you seem, and to those who harbor some sort of residual anti-semitism despite Israel being one of the USA's only allies, despite their being one of the only nations holding to our western Judeo-Christian values, here's the 411 on the Israel government:

According to the CIA World Fact Book---so don't read it if you still want to hold onto a hatred of Israel supported by a myth that it isn't a "democracy" (which I personally prefer a republic, anyway, but that's just me; YOU brought up democracy):

Government type: parliamentary democracy

Constitution: no formal constitution; some of the functions of a constitution are filled by the Declaration of Establishment (1948), the Basic Laws of the parliament (Knesset), and the Israeli citizenship law.

Legal system: mixture of English common law, British Mandate regulations, and, in personal matters, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim legal systems

Suffrage: 18 years of age; universal

_______________________________________________

It is my understanding that Arabs are more free in Israel than in any Arab country. It is my understanding that Arabs in Arab nations live in total states in which their leaders are absolute despots and they are not free.

That's neither here nor there.

Israel is our ally. More importantly, Israel HAS THE SAME VALUES WE DO. The same Western values. Worships the same God---the God Who gave them that land.

Finally---back to my point in the post to which you took umbrage at my disingenuousness for because I presumed YOUR OWN supposition that DEMOCRACY EQUALS FREEDOM (which I don't presume) and I presumed as the world does that the CIA WORLD BOOK is the authority on such facts as "Suffrage [in Israel over 18 yo is] UNIVERSAL". These people are our allies and our philosophical brothers and our religions kin. They are being murdered by the same heathen, pagan, cowardly animals who have and who will again murder us.

IF Bono and company REALLY want to make a difference for PEACE and if they REALLY care about innocent people dying at the hands of murderers and killers and land mines, this is a situation that is so perfect, so black-and-white, so immediate, so clear---and one in which they could make an immediate and huge difference right now by mobilizing an event like they did in the aftermath of Sept 11, a worldwide telethon to stop the suicide bombings like we had for seven consective days last week.

My POINT is they aren't going to do it. DUH!! The LEFT supports the PALIS! The left opposes Israel. Duh. Smoke 'em out. Smoke out the left for what they are. They are NOT for peace and never have been. They are for leftist causes. Peace when it SUITS the leftist causes. War when it suits the leftist causes.

9 posted on 04/06/2002 9:34:41 AM PST by gg188
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To: gg188
Curious reply. In your post you said that Israel is a free society. You did not use the word democracy. Then when I question the accuracy of the phrase free society you tell me I don't understand what a democracy is. Israel is not a free society for all of its native-born population. To point that out is not anti-semitic. Truth is not pro- or anti- anything, it just is. If you meant to call Israel a democracy rather than a free society then you should have used the right words.

As for the left in this country (in Hollywood in particular since this is your post's focal point) it is amusing to see the people whom you list to be put in a position of maintaining their leftist purity while defending Israel's actions. If the conflict were indentically mirrored with two other groups the Hollywood Elite Left, which harbors many Jewish Americans, would be four square against the party that would be in the Israeli position.

Many posters on this forum have taken a Jesse Jackson like attitude toward any discussion of Israel. That is they paint anyone who is not lock-step with them on every nuance of the conflict as an anti-semite. It is silly and counter-productive when Jackson uses this ploy. It is the same when you use it.

As for your assertion that God gave the land to the Jews, in legal parlance this comes under the heading of a self-serving statement...a book written by the "chosen" themselves is used as proof. The concept of any one group being divinely chosen is not unique to jews, just look at similar attitudes and beliefs in groups as disparate as the Japanese and the Navaho. Nor is the idea that God is on our side. Every side feels that with equal ardor and conviction.

You yourself profess to care about "innocent people dying at the hands of murderers..." and want to expose the hypocrisy of the left elite for their inaction. Where was your vocal outrage when the innocents being murdered were in Sri Lanka, or Bosnia, or East Timor? You pick and choose your causes just like everyone else does, and then stamp your feet when the rest of the world doesn't dance to your tune.

12 posted on 04/06/2002 11:12:09 AM PST by wtc911
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