Posted on 05/23/2002 1:46:16 PM PDT by RWBaral
No, they're our end of the bargain. All you have to do is accept his death as payment. To do so, you repent and ask for forgiveness. It's like the company credit card: the company pays the bill in full, but you have to sign for it (accept their payment). Such a miniscule thing to do for eternal salvation. After all, He DIED for you.
...what would Jesus do in this situation ? ...
The Book of Life is already writen in God's infallable knowledge.
Just because you can't see it ( but God can ) dosen't make the empty seat waiting for you any less real.
... with a tip of my hat to Schrodinger's Cat
Close, but it's the companies bill, paying for benefits that the company recieved.
You wouldn't be charging personal items and making the company pay for it would you ?
You did this thread based on this satire page of yours.
This is the welcome page to the satire link. Question: if I dig, will I find the verbiage from the header in this thread concerning HIV on your satire and general horseplay site?
Are you here taking FReepers for a joyrde with no substance? We are not stupid here sir.
Well?
To what situation are you referring?
The Book of Life is already writen in God's infallable knowledge.
No argument here...
Just because you can't see it ( but God can ) dosen't make the empty seat waiting for you any less real.
Right, but because we can't see it, we don't know if there's a seat there for us or not. Because we don't have that knowledge, all decisions we make are based on our free will.
Let me explain further. Can you, or can you not, decide either to follow God or to turn away from Him? Yes, we can decide what to do. God already knows what we will choose, so He's got a place ready for us. The point is that WE choose what to do, because we don't have the knowledge that God has. If our decisions are not based on free will, then what are they based on? Certainly not on any knowledge that we don't have.
I think we are both right on this, just looking at it from two different perspectives. As you say, we don't have free will because our lives are already planned for us. You are right that our lives are already planned. However, I say that we DO have free will because we don't know what that plan is. With no knowledge of that plan, our decisions MUST be made out of free will.
One more thing. You say that the Bible is the infallible Word of God, right? Well, the Bible says that we have free will (Leviticus 1:3, 19:5, 22:19, 22:29; Ezra 7:13; Philemon 1:14), so is the Bible wrong?
... with a tip of my hat to Schrodinger's Cat
Huh?
I think this analogy is even better than I first thought. Many companies (mine included) not only pay for their own expenses, but for entertainment and pleasure for their employees. My company takes us out several times a year for parties, cruises, lunch, etc. They pick up the bill, but we have to sign for it (accept it). No, we can't use it to buy personal items (groceries, etc), only things that they want us to have.
This is much like the way Jesus paid for our sins. He did not pay for them so we could just live our lives the way we want to free of consequences (buying personal items), but so we could be released from our sin and enjoy the blessings He wants for us (treating us to parties, etc). He is paying in full, but on His terms. All we have to do is accept it.
Our decisions are based on all the learning we have, outsiders influence, logic or lack thereof, our experience,what we had for breakfast this morning, our emotional stability and a billion other things we will never know effect us...
BUT... God created all of these things exactly the way he wanted it to play out.
He had to if he knows how it will end, and he could have changed any small portion of it to change the ending.
For example, an infinitesmally small change in the design of the amount of gravity could have caused someone to trip and fall. Perhaps my grandfather would have died and I would have never been born - but GOD knew all these interactions as he designed the world -
All of my experiences, my mental states, my emotions, all the neurons in my brain at every moment of my life that effect my "free will" decisions were allready known to Him as He created the world - Every coin flip, every spin of the wheel in Vegas ( even that there would be a Vegas ) were absolutely known and approved by Him - or he would have done it differently.
What's one thing God can't do ?..... Have a surprize party !
"... with a tip of my hat to Schrodinger's Cat"
... a theory in quantum physics - states the cat can be dead and alive at the same time. might somehow be linked to "free will" , but I doubt it.
In post #103 you say EXACTLY that. I quote: "The Book of Life is already writen in God's infallable knowledge." Your own words, the context of which was not sarcastic (if it was, it was a very poor attempt).
First of all, God has no time restrictions on Him. He can pay for something in the past and wait until you accept it. He's answered prayers before they were even uttered, but only revealed it afterward. If you want an example, I have several. I won't bore you with them unless you ask.
Secondly, no analogy is ever absolutely perfect, because if it was, it wouldn't be an analogy, it would be the same thing. Analogies are meant to convey an unfamiliar idea by using a similar situation that everyone can relate to and understand. Instead of nitpicking the details, use your God-given common sense to figure out what I'm trying to say. I believe I've made it crystal clear to all but the most obstinate or dense.
I know that you would love to continue mocking me and God, so I will leave it at that, unless you have something else of significance to contribute. Nitpicking the minute details of an analogy instead of trying to understand what the analogy is conveying is a bothersome waste of time, both yours and mine. If you don't agree with what I am trying to convey, fine. We can agree to disagree. I just want to make sure we understand each other and are not just engaging in hair-splitting.
I think your Schroedinger's Cat comment might be relevant here. I think that we both have free will and don't have free will at the same time, depending on which perspective we use. I pose that since we don't have God's perspective, we must use our own. From our own perspective, we DO have the free will to choose what to do.
Let me give one more example, and then I believe I will have given it my best to clarify my point. You are walking along and you come to a fork in the road. You can't see what is down either road, but you have to choose one. God knows which road you will choose, and He knows what the outcome is because He planned it all. Does He tell you? No. You must decide on your own. Let's say you decide to go left. Ok, God planned it that way. Let's say you decide to go right. Ok, THAT was God's plan. Since we don't know what His plan is, we must make decisions on our own. That, my friend, is free will.
Just because God has your life planned out entirely does not mean that you can go through it recklessly and still get to Heaven. If you go through life recklessly, maybe that was His plan for you. You may die and go to Hell. However, if you decide to follow God's instructions, then He must have planned it that way and you will get to Heaven. Whatever you choose to do out of your own free will, that was what God had planned you to do.
I appologize for my lack of knowledge of your beliefs - The way I read the quote below, the Book of Life refered too is not the Bible refering to itself.
"And if any one's name was not found written in the BOOK OF LIFE he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12,15 "
Exactly ! God's plan was (and is) for the majority of his loved creations to go to hell.
Simple misunderstanding.
You say "exactly", meaning that you understand my point and agree with that part of it. Maybe God does plan to have many people go to Hell, but we will never know for sure until we die. Do you want to be one of those people? I assure you, the decisions you make will get you to one place or the other.
Don't misunderstand, God already knows where you are going to go, because He planned it that way, but as I have shown, we have the free will to choose which way to go. You agreed with my statement that said (paraphrasing) "whichever way we choose to go, that's what God had planned for us". You must agree that because we don't have God's knowledge, we are able to make choices out of free will. Our choices determine if we get to Heaven or Hell. I'm sorry if you still don't grasp this concept, but I believe I've made it as clear as I can.
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