Posted on 06/03/2002 6:33:07 PM PDT by Asmodeus
TAIPEI, Taiwan - Murky underwater video footage provided the first glimpse on Friday of the submerged wreckage of a China Airlines jet in the Taiwan Strait: a battered luggage container, a dining cart and a wing ripped from the plane's body.
The chunks of debris might provide the best clues yet as to why the Taipei-Hong Kong flight suddenly broke apart 20 minutes after takeoff last Saturday and plunged into the seas before the pilots could send a distress signal. The crash killed all 225 aboard the Boeing 747-200.
The images were filmed by naval underwater video cameras 60 meters (200 feet) underwater about 40 kilometers (25 miles) north of the Penghu island chain, off Taiwan's west coast.
The cameras showed a wing that appeared to have been ripped off of the plane's fuselage. Nearby was a section of an overhead luggage compartment and a dining cart that flight attendants push down the aisles during meal service.
Investigators still were not speculating on the accident's cause.
Raising the wreckage could take time, investigator David Lee said. Strong currents and high waves were making diving conditions unsafe, he said.
"The divers haven't been able to go into the water very much," Lee said.
At another spot nearby, divers were closing in on the plane's "black boxes," or the voice and flight data recorders, Lee said. The devices might also be key to explaining why the plane went down.
So far, no bodies have been seen in the underwater footage, Lee said. Less than half of the victims have been found, and relatives mourned those killed Friday at Buddhist funerals traditionally held seven days after a deadly accident.
At a large ceremony in Taipei, a chorus of monks and nuns chanted Buddhist scriptures to put the dead souls to rest. About 400 relatives joined airline executives in dark suits and pilots in their white uniforms.
Meanwhile, Taiwanese investigators briefed a newly arrived team from American Underwater Search and Survey Ltd., which specializes in deep-sea recovery, Lee said. The Taiwanese hired the company — which searched for a TWA flight that crashed in 1996 near the coast of Long Island, New York.
It's a Taiwanese tradition for airline leaders to resign after a crash, and the 10 board members of the quasi-governmental foundation that owns a controlling stake in China Airlines have stepped down. It was not certain how many, if any, would be asked to keep their jobs.
Those who resigned included China Airlines Chairman Y.L. Lee and President Philip Wei. Traditionally, the airline's chairman and president are board members of the foundation, called the China Aviation Development Foundation. If they are not rehired, they might also lose their top jobs at the airline.
So9
Here's an excerpt from an earlier news article:
One veteran pilot who contacted the Taipei Times yesterday said Saturday's crash bore striking similarities to the crash of TWA Flight 800 off the coast of Long Island, New York in 1996. The pilot sought to keep his identity private for fear of reprisals from the Civil Aeronautics Administration (CAA). "Talking to several other pilots after we heard about the crash, we all agreed it suffered the same fate as TWA Flight 800 -- a center fuel-tank explosion", the pilot said.
After nearly four years of investigation, US inspectors said an explosion of vapors inside a fuel tank caused TWA Flight 800 to plunge into the ocean -- in a safety problem that may involve thousands of commercial aircraft built by a number of different manufacturers.
The Taiwan-based pilot alleged that China Airlines knew its 747-200 was vulnerable to the safety problem surrounding the troublesome fuel tank but failed to eliminate the risk.
Government officials yesterday ordered China Airlines to ground its four remaining Boeing 747-200s, which are used for cargo delivery.
As many airplanes do, TWA Flight 800 took off with just 50 to 100 gallons of fuel in its center tank. The procedure is used on short-haul flights to cut the overall weight of the plane and thus save on expensive jet fuel costs. In the case of TWA 800, experts said fumes inside the tank were heated to above the temperature at which they become explosive -- dooming the 747. What's not known is what ignited the blast.
China Airlines flight CI611 also took off with its center tank nearly empty -- a procedure that Boeing recommended be discontinued after the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in 1998 said fuel pumps on older model 747 planes were a possible source of faulty wiring that could have ignited the TWA blast.
"The FAA today issued an Airworthiness Directive prohibiting dry operation of the center wing tank override/jettison pumps ..." on applicable 747 airplanes, Boeing said in the statement to all owners of the planes. The pilot said China Airlines continued the risky practice "because here in Taiwan everything is about money."
Warnings from boeing
China Airlines vice president of flight safety, Samson Yeh (¸¤S«C), confirmed that the airline had received notification from Boeing not to run the center tank dry, but that they made their own safety modifications to eliminate any potential point of ignition. "At the time ... I remember we changed the procedure. In terms of empty fuel tanks we were not supposed to use the fuel pumps [when we flew with dry tanks], otherwise you will overheat it. I believe [the maintenance department] also put some insulation on the wiring, to isolate [potential sparks]," Yeh said. Yeh did concede that while an overheated fuel tank was "one of the possibilities" behind the sudden mid-air break up, "this case is different from [TWA 800] because that one was caused by the center fuel tank overheating, whereas this one was a sudden explosion -- which means it's totally different."
Another option for planes designated specifically for short-haul flights is the removal of the center tank and its pump -- a costly and time-consuming process, according to the pilot. A 16-year veteran for an international carrier, but based in Taiwan, the anonymous pilot said many cabin crews know China airlines' last remaining passenger 747-200 was flying with the potential risk, but that reporting the issue to civil authorities -- charged with overseeing the two national carriers -- could result in the loss of their jobs.
You mean the China Airlines flight was also shot down by a missile?
"You mean the China Airlines flight was also shot down by a missile?"
Here's the COMPLETE sentence from #3 above that you tried to play games with:
"Talking to several other pilots after we heard about the crash, we all agreed it suffered the same fate as TWA Flight 800 -- a center fuel-tank explosion", the pilot said."
I suggest you review my posting earlier today to Acehai in another thread by clicking here before trying to play any more games with the facts
Such as this statement:
"8:31:47 explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet. The eyewitnesses contend that the Massive Fireball explosion was immediately preceded by the fiery streak. "
This is the frist time I read a statement from an eyewitness to this effect.
Unlike its critics, and particularly the Missile Mongoloids, NTSB did thoroughly examine every possibility and that is one reason their report is so long.
To me, the physical evidence that shows that TWA800's tank blew up from the inside out, and that there is no path by which something outside (like a missile, or a bomb in the cargo bays) could have gotten into it, is completely dispositive.
Despite that the missile canard continues, undead, among Missile Mongoloids who have picked their conclusion in advance, and then will pick their evidence (and fabricate same when needed) to support the a priori conclusion. "Sentence first, then trial," is how Lewis Carroll put it, I believe.
One of these clowns "proved" that jet fuel isn't explosive by an "experiment" he conducted on his barbecue grill! O what an Edison we have lost in that man. I am sure that MIT and Cal Tech even now search the stands at WWF events for his countenance, knowing that only he can reverse 100 years of mistaken aeronautical research.
Anyway, Asmodeus... you're wasting your time with the Earth Flat Society here. None of them is willing to adjust a belief he holds with religious fervour. Yet the belief is controverted by physical, factual evidence (literally tons of it). I think we are getting close to a textbook definition of insanity.
It could be worse -- they could all think they're Napoleon, or women trapped in a man's body, or something.
d.o.l.
Criminal Number 18F
Anyone who thinks it's a missile probably thinks Through the Looking Glass is a factual travelogue. Anyone else ought to check out this .pdf file (mine you, it's a big one). You also should read the appendices. Pay particular attention to Sections 2.3.1.2 through 2.3.1.4. The section on human eyewitness evidence is also informative (unless you have worked in Law Enforcement or intelligence, then you probably know it already). Finally, look at all the possibilities that NTSB looked at on TWA800, and remember that none of these have been ruled out on the CAL crash. In fact, we have nothing but speculation (informed speculation, but speculation still) that the CWFT was causative. The wreckage is still at the bottom of the sea! There is a long recovery operation and a longer investigation ahead.
TWA 800 Report (7.6 Mb .pdf): http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAR0003.pdf
TWA 800 Appendices (8.9 Mb .pdf): http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAR0003_App.pdf
-C18F
I think the same could be said about you, huh?
Who do you expect people to believe: You, who continously spouts the side of the government, or the scores of witnesses (you know, the ones you are trying so hard to pretend do not exist) who saw an object rise from the water and hit TWA 800?
"Center fuel tank" my ARSE!
You can keep spewing your lies for as long as you want here at FR. And I will always be here to shine the light of truth.
Have a nice day.
Now, it is possible all the witnesses were, indeed, standing on their head at the time and actually saw falling debris, but even in the books of Lewis Carroll that seems highly unlikely.
Oh, and I have to say how charmed I am that you think anyone who does not accept the words of the government on this issue (or probably any other) is retarded. Very nice. I'd bet you would be a lot of fun at parties.
Why don't you give me an e-mail address, and I will send some truth your way??
Those looking for facts can find them in Jack Cashill's article, "Silenced: Flight 800 and the Subversion of Justice," originally published in chapters by World Net Daily and available for the first time in its entirety for anyone who asks.
I am not selling it in any way. I just want the truth to be told.
If you are interested, and you have MS Word, please send me a private response.
Psst. Your flashlight batteries seem to have gone dead.
Here are the facts from the earlier posting to Acehai on another thread as previously mentioned, for the readers here.
Many of the readers may be wondering why some of you tinfoil hat witness report analyst wannabe's are so desperately trying to discredit witnesses Faret & Wendell after touting them as your Star "shootdown" witnesses for so long.
Tens of millions of people around the world originally suspected that Flight 800 was the victim of a missile shootdown because of the initial press reports of a fiery streak tracking to the place in the sky where a HUGE fireball [aka Massive Fireball or MF] then exploded. They did so because they assumed the huge fireball exploded where the 747 was flying [at 13,800 feet at 8:31:12].
ALL the "shootdown" tinfoil hats made that assumption
The report of witnesses Faret & Wendell was the first detailed report to be posted on the internet but by then the tinfoil hat witness report analyst wannabe's had so completely convinced each other that Flight 800 was a "shootdown" victim that it had destroyed their own objectivity so badly that they failed to notice that Faret & Wendell clearly indicated the the Massive Fireball explosion was below their own flight altitude of 8500 feet and proceded to tout them as their star "shootdown" witnesses.
Only when it was publicly pointed out to them in a posting to the LSoft Flight 800 Forum in August 1997 that Faret & Wendell had made it clear the Massive Fireball was below 8500 feet did the tinfoil hats begin to realize their blunder. Which you and some of the rest of them have since tried to cover up with your efforts to discredit Faret & Wendell.
It appears that Richard Hirsch made the 2 most notable efforts to discredit them.
The first was his second smoke cloud notion, the allegation being that the smoke cloud left by the Massive Fireball explosion - and the smoke trail it left as it fell to the sea - had blown away and that the smoke cloud and trail Faret & Wendell flew over to had thereafter formed from rising smoke from the surface flames. That's why you're now talking about the winds aloft. Did Hirsch ever ask them if they saw the smoke cloud and trail disappear and get replaced by a second smoke cloud and trail that arose from the surface flames as they flew toward it?
The second was Hirsch's just plain goofy allegation that airline pilot David McClaine saw the Massive Fireball explode at or near 13,800 feet. Did he ever ask McClaine what his best estimate of the falltime of the Massive Fireball flames to the surface was?
As in any incident, there was only ONE sequence of events in the Flight 800 disaster and ALL of the fiery events in the sky observed by the eyewitnesses clearly appear to have taken place far below 13,800 feet and long after 8:31:12 - in short, during the final stages of the crippled flight of TWA Flight 800, just as the NTSB has stated.
The timeline and location of the major events of the disaster was approximately as follows:
8:31:11 Intact and climbing 747 approaches 13,800 feet.
8:31:12 Initiating Event at 13,800 feet followed immediately by the commencement of the decapitation process.
8:31:47 explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet. The eyewitnesses contend that the Massive Fireball explosion was immediately preceded by the fiery streak.
8:31:55-8:31:57 splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.
Source.
Notice the falltime of the Massive Fireball flames to the surface was approximately 8-10 seconds. Didn't witness Meyer say that he and his helicopter crewmates agreed at the time that the falltime was approximately 10 seconds? Isn't that a glaringly obvious impossibility from anywhere near 13,800 feet? Are you guys going to try to discredit him too - after touting him as a grizzled unflappable air combat veteran who knows what he saw?.
According to the NTSB Airborne Witness Matrix, ALL of the pilot witnesses who estimated the Massive Fireball explosion altitude gave estimates that were all compatible with Faret & Wendell's report - some of them estimating even lower altitudes. Are the tinfoil hats going to attempt to discredit ALL of them too?
How about The Sworn Testimony of FBI Chief Metallurgist William Tobin that there was no evidence of a missile shootdown or bomb in the recovered wreckage. The tinfoil hats have never been able to publicly produce any physical evidence to the contrary. Are they going to try to discredit Tobin too?
The "missile(s) shootdown" tinfoil hats have smeared thousands of Americans - including members of the U.S. military - by falsely accusing them of heinous crimes for nearly six years now without any supporting evidence.
All because of the erroneous assumption at the outset that the Massive Fireball explosion took place at or near 13,800 feet at 8:31:12.
It will be a real feather in your hat too, if you can do it, because NONE of the other "missile shootdown" promoters have ever been able to do it and it should go without saying that if they could have, they would have.
You mean, like these?
There were over 700 witnesses to the explosion that brought down TWA 800.
The NTSB's investigation was shut down by the FBI, even though, by law, the FBI could not take over an investigation unless a criminal act had occurred.
During the 8 pm hour, while patronizing a beachfront restaurant in Long Island, Linda Kabot snapped a photo of an airborne, self-propelled projectile, 15 miles from where TWA 800 went down.
After finding reddish residue on rows 17-19 of the plane, Terrell Stacey, TWA's number two man at the crash site, removed a pair of swatches and sent them to former accident investigator turned journalist James Sanders. Sanders, in turn, sent one of them to a lab in California to be tested. Results were said to be consistent with residue from a solid fuel missile or warhead.
And there is so much more where that came from.
You have no idea how funny it is when you keep offering that little strawman. But...
Who do you expect people to believe: You, who continously spouts the side of the government, or the scores of witnesses (you know, the ones you are trying so hard to pretend do not exist) who saw an object rise from the water and hit TWA 800?
Well, let's see...hmm....700 people versus one....hmmm....YES! Of course I believe you, Asmodeus.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
Why, I don't know. Why don't you fill us in?
And while you are at it, perhaps you can tell us why Congress neglected to mention their own foreknowledge of 9-11 to the public.
Or how about their reluctance to pursue matters regarding the JFK assassination?
Or maybe, just maybe, I could care less about what Congress did or did not do. That does not change a single thing that I have already mentioned in this thread. It also does not change the fact you did not challenge any of it, either.
I put my trust in the people, and when over 700 people see something that suggests something other than what the government is saying, when said government begins to behave like they were in some Richard Pryor routine, ("Who you gonna believe? Me or your lying eyes?") I know I should not have to doubt that trust.
"Why, I don't know. Why don't you fill us in?"
Why? Interested objective readers have known for years why - the tinfoil hat witness report analyst wannabe's don't know what they're talking about. Congress walked away along with the press and public. Even most of the tinfoils have walked away. Most of the "shootdown" websites have shut down. Most of the handful remaining have so many broken links it's obvious their authors have lost any real interest too. The LSoft Flight 800 Forum, the hub of posting activity on the subject for years, closed it's doors and attributed it to the Conspiracy Theorists. The only 2 remaining "public" forums, Yahoo TWA 800 and the Donaldson Brothers TWA 800 Forum, are nearing the bellyup stage. The Donaldsons', which lost its following when they began censoring, had only 4 postings during the entire month of May. The Yahoo forum had only 1 posting in the last 3 days of May and the pathetic handful still posting there have been on a merry-go-round of hair splitting trivia for months.
The members only FIRO was created by tinfoil hats several years ago to exclude everyone unable to pass their strict "we know Flight 800 was a missile(s) shootdown victim" litmus test - a litmus test which most of the remaining tinfoil hat members of the Yahoo forum failed to pass. The public hasn't even been permitted to read any postings in in the FIRO "think tank" and they've had a series of press conference flops - hardly likely to re-awaken much if any public interest.
The only place left where the "shootdown" tinfoil hats have an opportunity to try to re-awaken public interest is here, where you've simply demonstrated that your quiver is empty while resorting to your timeworn smears by continuing to falsely accuse thousands of Americans of heinous crimes that are figments of your feverish imaginations. In the process you've driven off passersby here with your Storm Trooper behavior just as you did everywhere else.
"Objective," you say. And yet, you call those who see things quite a bit differently than you "tinfoils". Objective, indeed.
Congress walked away along with the press and public. Even most of the tinfoils have walked away. Most of the "shootdown" websites have shut down. Most of the handful remaining have so many broken links it's obvious their authors have lost any real interest too.
It was done for the same reason people are walking away from 9-11: They want to "move on." They know what happened, but they do not feel the need to waste their time and energy on loggerheads.
The only place left where the "shootdown" tinfoil hats have an opportunity to try to re-awaken public interest is here,
Actually, I could not help but notice that TWA 800 had been barely mentioned since 1999. The only reason for its resurgence is due to posts that you have made. If you are so gosh darned convinced everyone thinks as you, why all the unnecessary posts?
where you've simply demonstrated that your quiver is empty while resorting to your timeworn smears by continuing to falsely accuse thousands of Americans of heinous crimes that are figments of your feverish imaginations.
Not only is that an exaggeration, I find it hard to believe that it is such a "figment of my feverish imagination" that you feel it necessary to change the subject.
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