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Posted on 06/05/2002 3:34:28 PM PDT by vannrox
What I said was the empirical evidence does not support the claim of the extinction of 100 species per day:
And the empirical evidence for this is? The "100 species go extinct per day" claim was an off-the-cuff comment by some environmentalist whacko back in the '70s that has been taken as gospel by an credulous media ever since. Truth be told, there is no way to determine the number of species that may go extinct at any given time, and the 100-per-day claim means that 36,500 species go extinct each year (36,600 each leap year). There are between 1 million and 4 million species extent on the Earth right now. If the claims of the whackos were correct, in the last 30 years (since the claim was first made) somewhere between 25 percent to 100 percent of all species on the planet would now be extinct -- this is something not supported by the empirical evidence.[68]
To which you replied:
Well, "Howdy Doody", I guess that means that speciation is not happening to replenish the losses. Darwin would be unhappy about that empirical evidence.[70]
Note that I had said nothing about speciation or even evolution at this point. I simply stated the empirical evidence did not support the 100-species-per-day claim -- which I immediately pointed out to you:
You are a master at reading that which is not there. Speciation, as has been stated before on these threads (though I don't expect you'd admit to seeing such) does not occur overnight -- and would therefore be incapable of keeping up with the supposed level of extinction referred to by Miss Barbara.[72]
You came back with:
Please enlighten us on the empirical evidence, i.e. the numbers to establish the facts one way or the other. Extinction, except in rare cases, does not occur overnight either.[75]
Your reply 76 was a non-sequitur and just this side of an ad hominem, but as it bears little relevance for the discussion here, we'll overlook it. However, I pointed out in 78 that:
Which is exactly what I said in response to Miss Barbara's claim that 100 species go extinct daily. Are you having problems following the discussion, or do you like to argue with evolutionists for the sake of arguing with them?
In other words, I had never said species go extinct overnight. Neither had I said species evolve overnight. That was something you came up with completely on your own. The sad fact is, you're slipping to the level of a Mr. Saturn or HWWNBN. I often wondered why you and VadeRetro went at it tooth and nail and pretty much ignored most of your exchanges. Now I understand just how infuriating it can be to discuss anything with you -- you obfuscate, prevaricate and generally twist words in an effort to get in little jabs. I am seriously considering relegating you to the status of persona non grata as I have done to HWWNBN because of your tactics.
To get back on the subject, while decease and loss of habitat might have contributed to the extinction I would say that hunting was what finished them off. The idea of taking “one or two per year” is contrary to the hunting methods used against large herd animals at this time, which was to drive the herd over a cliff. This allowed you to get maximum bang for your buck and kept your hunters from getting killed. Keeping your hunters healthy was a major consideration when a large band might have 100 people in it with maybe 25 hunters. Most were smaller with 10 to fifteen hunters. Losing even one was a serious loss to the tribe.
This was the method used against the buffalo and the buffalo population was steadily shrinking until the arrival of the horse when it became possible to hunt a few as needed. And buffalo have a much shorter cycle then the mammoths probably would have. Four years as opposed to twenty years I think.
a.cricket
This is truly hilarious. As if, You are a master at reading that which is not there. is not an Ad Hominem! And talk about twisting words. I mention overnight in response to your mention of the word and the use is to deny overnight. You make this out to mean that I said you said things happen overnight. Balderdash!
Please enlighten us on the empirical evidence, i.e. the numbers to establish the facts one way or the other. Extinction, except in rare cases, does not occur overnight either.
I find that rather ironic considering the source, a Darwinian - who are champions of the just so stories.
No it isn't. You made no claim other than that empirical evidence, whatever you mean by that, does not support 100 species per day loss. I do not put any particular credence to that number as it is unsubstantiated and thus to be considered in the same light as many Darwinians claims. However, the fact is that " overnight" and "100 losses per day" are not the same. In light of the definitions used by Darwinians to justify speciation, it is not difficult to imagine the production of the required numbers hourly.
Who says that disease and hunting couldn't have worked together to wipe them out? Same happened to Native Americans BTW. Poetic justice? Maybe God didn't like the fact that the NA peoples wiped out his mammoths so he sent his world exterminator service (AKA the "white devil") over to make them pay 11K years later!
EBUCK
That is not the problem that you think. The Europeans were very few at first and they did spread the sicknesses throughout the Americas. The black plague went through Europe in just 2-3 years. All humans and all species have contact with their neighbors. This is not as unlikely as it sounds.
He did no such thing. He just asked you to back up your claim that there is evidence that 100 species do not die every day. That's all. That you answer him with an ad hominem rant shows that he was right to question your statement. You had no such evidence, had never seen any such evidence, you just plain made it up. If you were able to back up what you said you would not have to degrade this discussion by insulting someone that disagrees with you.
Check out The Skeptical Environmentalist: Measuring the Real State of the World by Bjorn Lomborg.
Lomborg, a self-described former "old leftist Greenpeace member" deals with the issue of species extinction on pages 249-257 of his book.
The actual facts, as best as can be determined, are that about 25 species go extinct every decade, most of them insects, worms, bacteria, viruses, fungi and other invertebrates.
Lomborg, like the Fox News Channel, presents all sides of the argument - Fair and Balanced. Without humans in the picture, the number of extinctions per decade, based on historical records, would only be about 2 instead of 25. So humans do have a negative influence, but certainly nothing like the ludicrous claims of lunatic left-wing environmental extremists.
When I was in second grade or third, I attended an art class and learned how to draw. My drawing has not progressed significantly since, but the interesting thing was this other kid, a marginal retard. He wasn't smart, not even for a second-grader, but he didn't know anything, really nothing. Most kids know some stuff, he knew nothing.
He wasn't able to draw or do anything with clay or mache, just a total dunce. But one day we were asked to draw an elephant. Surprise! He drew an elephant, rendered in 3-D shadowing and texture, great range of color, and it was just a great-looking elephant. Then we went to clay and he made a clay elephant if anything even better than his drawing. I asked him how he learned to draw elephants, and he didn't know. He just always could, but nobody ever asked him to, so he never did.
Perhaps he was descended from a group of mammoth hunters a few eons ago. Something like mammoth-hunting would have to be almost genetic, you would have to "know" how the mammoth works, how it thinks. Bet that kid would have been a mammoth hunter.
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The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes:
Flood, Fire, and Famine
in the History of Civilization
by Richard Firestone,
Allen West, and
Simon Warwick-Smith
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