Libertarianism or Libertinism? (Frank S. Meyer Flashback)

The Potowmack Institute ^ | September 9, 1969 | Frank S. Meyer

[Pyro7480]

See post #18. It would probably be a good idea to look into the history of this time period to get an idea of what he's talking about. The Nash book I mentioned earlier would be a good resource for that.

[Pyro7480]

Ritual cannibalism practiced by Catholics and other religious sects? Well, if you look at the beliefs of the Catholic Church bluntly, it may appear to be just that. But this belief/practice, according to Catholics, is Biblically-based. I don't completely understand the issue over cannibalism as related to libertarianism, but I think I will take a look at this controversy.

[r9etb]

It's difficult to make any sense of this because it doesn't clearly define the distinction between government and society.

I think Meyers tangentially addresses that point here: The essence of civilization, however, is tradition: no single generation of men can of itself discover the proper ends of human existence. At its best, as understood by contemporary American conservatism, the traditionalist view accepts political freedom, accepts the role of reason and innovation and criticism; but it insists, if civilization is to be preserved, that reason operate within tradition and that political freedom is only effectively achieved when the bulwarks of civilizational order are preserved.

Which is to say, Meyers apparently rejects the idea that there is a clear distinction between government and society. Nor, apparently, should there be -- to believe and act otherwise is to pretend that one knows a priori all of the contingencies with which society and/or government might be faced.

It's worth noting, BTW, that the "libertine libertarians" are very much with us, primarily as a cultural force, but also among many of the more aggressive (predominantly liberal) activist organizations.

[FastCoyote]

libertine libertarians and facist conservatives both hold more than a grain of truth. That's why I'm now a Constitutional republican (not a Republican).

Only the Constitution separates us from anarchy or statism. When people here realize this, the libertarian-conservative wars will end.

[FreeTally]

I don't know. Since you've distinguished it from rape, the definition of child molestation gets awfully fuzzy.

I didn't think about that. I guess you could lump the two together and just call it rape. The age of the victim should not matter.

I also would want for there to be new "rules" covering a conviction for rape. Juries have been known to convict a person for rape merely upon testimony, without any real evidence. That could not be allowed. I would insist that there be laws that would prevent prosecuters from filing any charges without actual, physical evidence. The word of the woman(or man) can not be considered as evidence.

[OWK]

Hey, looks like the time is ripe for you to join The Holy Church of Anti-Catholic Brethren right over here! Bask in the approval of like-minded folk! Go and enjoy!

Anti-Catholic?

Not at all. Not two posts ago I stated that I'd apply my principles in defense of the ritual cannibalism practice by Catholics and other religious sects.

What's anti-Catholic about that?

(or do you disagree with the assertion that Catholics and other religious sects practice ritual cannibalism?)

[OWK]

Ritual cannibalism practiced by Catholics and other religious sects? Well, if you look at the beliefs of the Catholic Church bluntly, it may appear to be just that. But this belief/practice, according to Catholics, is Biblically-based.

Biblical or otherwise, it remains ritual cannibalism... no?

[Scuttlebutt]

Certainly I would apply my principles in defense of the ritual cannibalism practiced by Catholics and other religious sects.

You need to 'splain that one to me. It went completely over my head.

[Pyro7480]

Wow. Thanks for posting this. Were you one of these "Young Conservatives" that visited Meyer in Woodstock? It seems from your account that you were, but it isn't completely clear. I admire the man even more now that you mention that the every wall of the house was lined with books. I'm defintitely a bookworm. Almost my entire room is full of printed material - books, magazines, papers, etc.

I recently browsed the Smant biography of Meyer that I mentioned earlier at the Borders near my house. I read about Meyer being such a night person as you said. This occured because of Meyer's departure from the Communist Party. The Meyers so feared reprisal by the Party that they kept a loaded rifle near their bed for some time, and because of the resulting imsomnia, they became night people. This is another reason for me to admire him, because I'm SO not a morning person. My "best" hours are between 6 pm and 2 am.

The reason why I looked into Meyer's book finally after having it for almost 3 years was an article that was posted on FR that was written by a fellow college student named Daniel McCarthy . Titled "Crash-Course for Conservatives," it mentioned a small reading group the author had started at his school, and one of the books they read was "In Defense of Freedom." After reading about the "disagreement" the book had caused amongst the students in the group (similar to the controversy that was caused after the book was first printed), I had to read. My discovery of Meyer's writings and ideology has been rather exciting for me, since as I mentioned before, it is the closest I've seen to my own ideology. I think it will help me to tighten up and better argue my own conservatism. I am glad to consider myself a new follower of Frank Meyer.

[Physicist]

Not at all. I never said that libertarians were cannibals or even supported cannibalism, merely that, when challenged, they were ready to apply their principles in its defense, i.e., to say that as long as no murder or other violation of human rights were involved, the practice should be legal.

It seemed to me that people on the thread were saying that, so long as no murder or other violation of human rights were involved, the practice of looking at photographic representations of it should be legal.

I've seen many pictures of the atrocities of 9/11. I'm sure you have, too. By viewing them, did you and I lend support to those atrocities? Did we do something morally wrong? Should someone have stopped us?

[Wolfstar]

Thank you for posting this, Pyro. It complements well an article I posted yesterday in which I appealed to Republicans to understand what they would vote FOR if they cast a so-called protest vote for a Libertarian Party candidate. It generated some lively discussion. I supposed I should not be surprised at how many people misunderstand — and adamantly refuse to consider — the true position of the group of founders who wanted a limited federal government. What they wanted was for the states to retain their sovereignty. They wanted strong state governments and a weak federal government. What the above article calls "libertine libertarianism" is as foreign to what they had in mind as Jupiter is to Earth.

[KC Burke]

Meyer bump. His vision that real-world libertarianism could work hand-in-hand with staunch conservatism and be productive together was a great and valiant effort made with admirable sincerity. His detractors, as I remember, were the ones who came up with the 'fusionist' term, implying that it was a compromise or melting down of the two great strands of conservatism.

[OWK]

It is a standard accusation, patently absurd, originally made by the pagan Romans back in the first or second century, and more recently taken up by a certain variety of self-styled "Bible fundamentalists."

The Eucharist is not ritual cannibalism?

Isn't it the ritual consumption of the blood and body of Christ?

Isn't the doctrine of transubstantiation a support of an even more literal interpretation of this assertion?

I have no objection to Catholics (or any other religious sects) engaging in this ritual cannibalistic practice. In fact, as I've already stated, I apply my libertarian principles in defense of it (provided rights are not violated).

What part of my position do you object to?

Do you disagree with my assertion that the Eucharist is ritual cannibalism?

If it isn't, then what is it?

[Pyro7480]

I think allend is taking issue with your terminology. I don't think you're spouting anti-Catholicism.

[Pyro7480]

It's funny how even on a thread that is discussing conservatism and libertarianism, how the Catholics vs. anti-Catholics argument creeps in. ;-) I'm not taking issue with it entirely, but I think it can be easily discussed elsewhere. ;-)

[OWK]

I don't think you're spouting anti-Catholicism.

Thanks. (I am certainly not)

[OWK]

It was not my intent to single out Catholicism in my reference to ritual cannibalism.

In fact there are many Christian sects (if not most) which practice it.