Marines might replace M-16A2 with M-4

Pacific Edition, Stars and Stripes ^ | Sunday, August 4, 2002 | Mark Oliva

[demlosers]

It’s smaller, lighter and better suited for modern battles. And it might be headed into the hands of U.S. Marines.

Marine Corps officials wrapped up testing two new rifles as a possible replacement to the M-16A2 in stock now: the short M-4 carbine and the M-16A4, an upgraded model of the rifle Marines use now.

The jury’s still out, but a decision is expected soon. So far, though, the M-4 is garnering praise from the Marines and looks to be a front-runner.

However, some soldiers who fought in Afghanistan have expressed concerns about the M-4, which also is standard issue for U.S. Army infantry troops. Their chief complaints, though, appear to center on the ammunition used, not the weapon itself — and officials have said ammunition types are undergoing review.

The M-4 is hardly new to the Corps. Marine Force Reconnaissance units, Fleet Anti-Terrorism Security Teams and Military Police Special Response Teams have been using the weapon since 1999 as a replacement for the MP-5 submachine gun.

Corps officials tested the two rifles for more than 18 months. The latest test, held at Camp Lejeune, N.C., wrapped up in July. The rifles were put through the wringer, including shooting at known-distance ranges, live-fire field trials and force-on-force scenarios, said Capt. John Douglas, project officer at Marine Corps Systems Command in Quantico, Va.

Douglas said the M-16A4 looks and feels much like the M-16A2 but, like the M-4, has component parts. The Corps can buy either weapon of the existing Army contract, Douglas said.

“Both weapons have flat-top upper receivers with 1913 Military Standard rails for mounting optics as well as forward rail hand guards,” Douglas said.

“All accessories from lasers, lights, scopes, etc., mount to the 1913 rails as a standard mounting platform, allowing tailoring of the weapon to mission, billet, or individual ergonomic preferences,” he said.

But even if a new rifle comes, Douglas said, not every Marine will get one. They’ll be fielded only for ground infantry units.

The maneuverability, adaptability and ease of operation cause some to favor the M-4 for tomorrow’s Marines.

Mike Reissig, a sales representative with Colt Manufacturing, declined to answer questions before test results are released but forwarded a point paper provided by the Marine Corps to Colt Manufacturing. It says the rifle simply is a better fit for the way Marines will be fighting in the future.

The weapon, the paper said, is based on a proven design familiar to all Marines, and is equally well-suited for operations in all types of terrain, including use in urban environments.

The M-4 has interchangeable sighting systems, add-on vertical forward grips and even a detachable short version of the M-203 grenade launcher. The rifle itself is one full pound lighter than the M-16A2 and 10 inches shorter. The collapsible buttstock is designed to make it more adaptable to individual shooters, a benefit especially in tight-packed urban areas.

“This allows the Marine to rapidly shoulder the weapon from a proper fighting stance with combat gear,” the review said. “The reduced barrel length allows the weapon to be more easily maneuvered in restrictive terrain, urban areas, vehicles and aircraft.”

There are some drawbacks to the M-4, though. A shorter barrel means reduced velocity and accuracy at long ranges. But it’s unlikely, the Marine review said, that battles would be waged at more than 200 meters. At that distance, the M-16A2’s and M-4’s performance are nearly identical.

The M-4, the review concluded, “provides our infantry unit leaders with the ability to rapidly prepare for combat under varying situations, while allowing them to employ the latest in target acquisition technology. Its modular nature allows us to upgrade components as improvements become available.”

[decimon]

How about a four pound version?

http://www.proord.com/news_ff.html

[spetznaz]

Marines replacing M-16A2 with M-4 PING!!!!!!!!

[Beenliedto]

If range is a consideration the old M-14 is good to 1,000 meters.

I like my old M-1 at 1000 meters... now if that empty clip just didn't make that distinctive sound.....

[demlosers]

Many good points. I'm with you being to engage targets out as far as I can. There will be a time the Marines get into a fire fight with their M-4s in the open and they find the enemy has a longer reach than they do.

Zeroing the M16 wasn't hard for me either, easy as 1 2 3.

I think overall, I agree with someone else that perhaps having one weapon that solves all problems is not really practical- perhaps a mixture of different weapons that accomplish different tasks being brought to bear on the enemy as part of a fire team as opposed to an individual.

Yes I tend to agree, until the military does get the "perfect rifle" thats seems the way to go.

[J Jay]

. Furthermore, while the effectiveness of the 5.56mm NATO round is quite good, it too has been around for quite some time. Personally, I'd like to see someone come up with something between it and the 7.62x51mm NATO.

They did. Its called .243 Winchester. A high performance cartridge--100grain bullet with muzzle velocity of 2900fps. It is a necked down .308/7.62 case with a 6mm bullet. Short maximum length of 2.7-in.--ideal for automatic weapons. Light recoil. Women and children have been knocking off white tail deer with this for years.

[VaBthang4]

At first glance I dont like the decision one bit...

The one total and complete advantage the M-16 has over the Ak-47 is range.

We were able to drop Iraqis from ranges they couldnt concieve of. All their infantry troops could do was run for cover as they tried to elevate their AKs in a vain attempt to reach us.

Individual Marines were able to snipe Iraqis at standoff distances. I understand the Amry using the M-4....Army soldiers already cant engage from great distances, so giving them a rifle with a shorter range only seems appropriate....but taking an advantage away from Marines is not something I like at all.

Sounds like some jealous geek Marine decision to me. The M-4 looks cooler.

[genefromjersey]

A few threads up ahead, there was a report from Afghanistan -based troops, suggesting the M4 was unreliable, because it was almost impossible to keep clean.There were also problems with the SAW (squad automatic weapon).

Time to break out the "old" 7.62 mm M-14's, and come up with a 7.62 BAR.

Re-organize the squad into 3 four man fire teams-one BAR un each team.

[x1stcav]

Am I missing something? With the exception of the usual upgrades common to the system, don't we still have a CAR15?
Great for patrolling in thick vegetation, great balance with a 20 round magazine, sight radius about as useful as your standard .45 M1A1. Should be great for support or rear troops.

As for line troops, I'd like to see us adopt the 7X57 Mauser, or similar, fired by a caliber-scaled M14 action. Not the sissy loading that the ammo manufacturers produce as a safety measure, but a hotter military specific loading.

[eno_]

I distinctly recall an account of a firefight where a grunt said words to the effect "We were nervous until we saw our marksmanship was better than their's."

That doesn't sound like there were toe to toe. Range and accuracy may matter. OTOH, that was a SpecOps unit, and may have had snipers along.

[demlosers]

A few threads up ahead, there was a report from Afghanistan -based troops, suggesting the M4 was unreliable, because it was almost impossible to keep clean.There were also problems with the SAW (squad automatic weapon).

Yeah I know, that's my post also. It did rate a 89% confidence level wil the troops who were asked to assess the weapon. But, as one soldier pointed out, “If I did not have so many opportunities to clean [my M-4] I’m not sure how reliable it would have been.”

[G.Mason]

"I like my old M-1 at 1000 meters... "

I'll second that. Over 2500fps & 150 + grns.

"now if that empty clip just didn't make that distinctive sound.....

Not to worry.....at a 1000 meters yards.

[sawsalimb]

The 7mm-08 would be a very good choice. If it will knock over the 500 meter sheep silhouettes,it's plenty powerful. Also,I can attest from experience,it won't beat you to death with recoil. Fired offhand,from a bolt action rifle,it can be comfortably managed by just about anyone-and "anyone" includes the 80 pound young lady,age 16,who won the last match I was at. If chambered in a gas operated self loader,it ought to be just about perfect.

[xkaydet65]

Two recent articles are of interest. In last month's SOF there was a story about the M4 that claimed a great many long range kills during Anaconda. Most recenly in USNI Proceedings Maj. Anthony Milavic, USMC(ret)attacks the decision to go to the M4 because of his belief in the inadequacy of the 5.56 cartridge. He includes anecdotals from Nam, the Gulf, Somalia, and Afghanistan testifying to the inability of the 5.56 to put down a target.

Two contradictory articles. As a buff and not a vet I leave it to the experienced to make a judgement.

[joesnuffy]

If you insist on a poodle shooter at least get one with a 18" or 20" barrel...slightly
greater velocity & range shooting heavier bullets (>than 55 gr FMJ)...Personally after a year in Vietnam as a grunt and medic (with the 9th Inf Div/ Mobile Riverine Force) ...I'd like to see our guys at least have the option of something more powerfull...more reliable (in blowing sand) shooting at least a 150 gr FMJ ...imo

[xsrdx]

Ill Advised switch to carbines?? BUMP

[Long Cut]

Didn't Armalite chamber one version of their AR-10 in that caliber? It does sound like the correct path, at least. Hopefully more serious work will be done on the problem. At the least, we should try some different actions besides the direct-gas system of the M16.

I would like to see what American arms designers could do with such things as gas-pistons(AK, M14,), or delayed-recoil(Browning M2, Thompson) and a cartridge such as the .243.

BTW, I also don't think we need all the geegaws we seem to hang or attach to the rifle. What we need is something which follows the concept of RAM-D(Reliability, Availability, Maintainability, Dependability) first and only then play with the toys. Weapons following this concept well are much liked. Witness the affection of older vets for the M-1/M-14 rifles. It's near universal. The M16 has been "controversial" for 40 years, and is still viewed with suspicion by a great many who use it.

This alone should tell us something about what to replace it with.