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VAN DAM MURDER VERDICT [VERDICT IN: GUILTY!]
ABC radio

Posted on 08/21/2002 10:03:52 AM PDT by wallcrawlr

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To: FreeTheHostages; cyncooper
I know conservatives some times may a fashion of decrying juries as idiots. Well, when 12 people place a check on each other's thinking, my experience was they almost always did the right thing together. I believe in juries. I really do. I really respected them. And just as dogs can tell if you like them, I think the juries saw that. I know of no better way to decide guilt or innocence.

I agree with what both of you have said regarding juries. It irritates me when I see some conservatives brag about getting out of jury duty, like it's beneath them or something. And then some of these folks are the very same ones who complain about juries making bad decisions. Talk about cognitive dissonance!

981 posted on 08/22/2002 9:31:39 PM PDT by NYCVirago
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To: NautiNurse
I'll say it again, slowly this time...B L E A C H...

Again you show your knowledge of the media over the evidence presented at trial. The only bleach present was in Westerfield's washing machine, not his motor home. Your dismissal of evidence does now 'wash'. There was no evidence of 'bleach' in the motor home.

Please explain to this humble nurse the signficance that bruising was not evident on a mummified body with much flesh missing?

Once again you must read what the ME testified to instead of what you have heard on the boob tube. The ME said that there was NO evidence of bruising on her wrists or the ankle that remained, and that there was suffieient flesh that remained to make such a determination......

But please keep askin questions, for in your asking you may find the need to find the truth.....the truth that lies beyond the screen and lays in the real world.

982 posted on 08/22/2002 10:08:04 PM PDT by Dave_in_Upland
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To: agrandis
Aww, Illbay is like that on all the threads he visits.

Society can only hope that in 30 years or so he grows up and matures like most teen boys do.

983 posted on 08/22/2002 10:12:22 PM PDT by Dave_in_Upland
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To: Illbay
You praise the jury as "sifting and examining everything" [that is, that section of the evidence the judge would let them see!!]... had it ended in acquittal (a la 12 Angry Men) or hung jury would you be so complimentary? Of course not.
984 posted on 08/23/2002 2:38:12 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: Valpal1
Well, there are hospital records to back up your claim about how the blood came to be in your vehicle.

The records say nothing about how his cousin was transported there, only that he was there. Hospital emergency rooms don't ask how the patient arrived and don't record who was with the patient. Every emergency room I've been to didn't care how I got home!

And a hospital record for a nosebleed, the frequency of Danielle's which was in evidence in this trial? Come on.

DW offered no explanation or witnesses to place the victim in his MH in an innocent fashion

Feldstein, his spokesman, did.

985 posted on 08/23/2002 2:47:08 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: Valpal1
P.S. To those who call me "pro-Westerfield" I laugh in their face. I am not pro-Westerfield, I am pro-reasonable-doubt. I think he "probably" did the deed or was closely involved with it. However as Melvin Belli put it so nicely, probably is not enough.
986 posted on 08/23/2002 2:50:39 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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I think it's pretty easy to reconcile the 'not guilty' mindset. There is a sliver of the population that (probably unbeknownst to them) subscribes to a peculiar brand of nihilism, which forces them to believe in nothing that they cannot touch, feel, or experience for themselves. The diligence of experts, the earnestness of witnesses, and the consistency of process mean nothing if there isn't a videotape of DW actually killing Danielle (of course, if there WERE such a tape, these folks would claim it was fabricated, but I digress).

I think a large part of this comes from the increasing desire in this country to BE somebody. If you can't be a music or a movie star, or if you can't get notoriety any other way, one sure way to satisfy that little itch is to be controversial. Maybe the best example I can imagine comes from the legion of people on this board who, throughout the trial, have posted things like, 'what about X piece of (possibly exculpatory) evidence? Why isn't the defense mentioning this?' when in fact everyone can rest assured that the defense was using every iota of exculpatory evidence to its fullest. If I can find some bit of minutia that, when examined at the proper angle, makes the case against DW appear shaky, then I have DONE SOMETHING. I have BECOME CONTROVERSIAL. I have RAISED PEOPLE FROM THE MORASS OF THEIR OWN TROUBLES, AND ENMIRED THEM IN MINE.

The problem, of course, is that the entire X-Files-influenced, conspiracy-theorist, fervently not-guilty, someone-else-is-involved crowd takes such items well out of context and obscures them accordingly, when in fact the job of the jury is to align such information in a way that allows for the proper application of the 'reasonable doubt' standard.

Of course, the nihilists, because of their nihilism, implicitly reject the reasonable doubt standard in favor of the 'I won't convict unless I hovered above the known realm and personally WITNESSED the crime, or, failing that, had a really snazzy DVD of the crime, produced by my buddy, who usually videos weddings.' That's what you get in a postmodern world: a required standard of proof that can't be constructed, specifically because it's bound to be DECONSTRUCTED. It's as though they're all saying, look, there is a chance, though tiny, that DW did not do it. Since no one will ever know what REALLY happened (besides a dead girl and DW), I'm going to opt for the thing that makes me look like the hippest iconoclast if a miracle happens and he DIDN'T do it. Runnin' with the crowd is for CHUMPS.

There is no evidence of him being in the home. Ever.

Perhaps not, but there is evidence that Danielle is dead, and her DNA was found on his personal items. The lack of evidence of DW in the VD home is sufficient for conviction, but not NECESSARY.

Put differently, the prosecution need not show HOW Danielle got into DW's world, only that she WAS in his world, and now she is dead.

There is no motive.

None that was made public. I did not hear DW utter a word during the entire trial, so we can only speculate about his motive.

The VDs continuously changed their stories.

Which, I assume, means that they must somehow be complicit, if not downright guilty. We can rest assured, with probability one, that the defense team sought any shred of plausible evidence that the VD family had something to do with it, and that DW was either totally innocent, or was covering up for them. I submit that DW would have sung like a canary if the latter were true, and that the overwhelming police investigation would have uncovered evidence of the former.

The Prosecution went from smoking gun to smoking gun. ie bleach, binocs, blinds, hose, etc.

It's the confluence of the evidence, taken in concert. Circumstances would have been too coincidental, too idiosyncratic to reach the conclusion that DW had nothing to do with it. The combination of the circumstances allowed the prosecution to cross the reasonable doubt threshold. It's a movies-and-TV mentality that requires a single, absolute, incontrovertable, metaphysically consistent smoking gun to justify conviction.

I regret to inform the nihilists that the most obvious answer is almost invariably the answer. I'm sorry you did not get your way, and that the verdict only added to your mistrust of the system. But fear not: another episode of the X-Files is probably about to start on the FX Channel, and soon you can crawl right back into your world of implausibility and least-likely solutions.

987 posted on 08/23/2002 5:05:11 AM PDT by Starshine
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To: HiTech RedNeck
You don't understand, because you are so obsessed you think it's normal.

If they'd have found him "not guilty" then I would have concluded that they saw the evidence was lacking.

Simple.

Now, let me hear you say it: "Since the jury proclaimed him guilty, then he must be the murdering child rapist that I've been denying all along."

That's the first step toward recovering your sanity.

988 posted on 08/23/2002 5:53:52 AM PDT by Illbay
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To: Dave_in_Upland
The only bleach present was in Westerfield's washing machine, not his motor home. Your dismissal of evidence does now 'wash'.

Oh my dear Dave--you can't see the forest for the trees are in the way...

I suppose you have a fantastic explanation for why Mr. Meticulous Westerfield left his uncoiled hose on the lawn, since he was so full of time on his hands not wiping his RV clean of all but one handprint and a drop of Danielle's blood while the bleach and empty bottle was only in his laundry with her hair because he was going to meet and entertain friends that never materialized, and he made the early quick stop to innocently drop off the bloodstained jacket and contaminated comforter while dressed in his skivvies and bare feet on a very chilling Monday morning.

Have you considered writing fantasy movels?

989 posted on 08/23/2002 6:38:38 AM PDT by NautiNurse
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To: agrandis
>>>Did you realize it is as predictable and verifiable as fingerprinting, when trying to determine timelines?<<<

Do you realize how ridiculous that statement is?

990 posted on 08/24/2002 1:57:03 AM PDT by Greg Weston
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To: Starshine
Great post. Maybe the best one in the whole Danielle FR saga...
991 posted on 08/24/2002 2:01:01 AM PDT by Greg Weston
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To: Greg Weston
So on a forum, writing style isn't perfect! I'll be! You don't want me to start critiquing yours that way. I'm sure you are smart enough to know what I meant, even as poorly written as the sentence stands. I see you've really educated yourself on forensic entomology. It seems you don't want to know the truth, or to become better informed. You have it all figured out, and all that's left to do is to criticise writing style.

I do thank you for the correction, though, because it was a terribly written sentence. Let me try again. Did you realize that when answering questions concerning time of placement of bodies, forensic entomology is as reliable and exact as fingerprinting is for determining the presence of certain individuals at a location, or for determining what objects an individual has touched?

No, you didn't know that. I dare say all you know about forensic entomology (and I wonder if you even knew such a science existed prior to this trial) is the account given by the popular news media of an account given by a prosecutor of an account given by a careless, paid expert witness. That's pretty flimsy evidence on which to condemn the utility of a whole science.

An analogy to what happened in this case would be the following: A man robs a house, and the alarm system was tripped at 5PM, sharp. A man later arrested for robbing the house has a tight alibi for where he was from 4 to 5:30PM, and it was not at the house. His lawyers bring in two witnesses for the alarm company who state that the alarm was definitely tripped at 5PM. The prosecutor brings in an expert on electronic alarms who states that, although he knows of no actual cases, it is possible that there was a glitch in the clock, and that the alarm could have actually been tripped as early as 4PM, if the clock had some unprecedented glitch in it. That's not a very discriptive analogy, but that's roughly analogous to the "disagreement" among the three entomologists. Westerfield may well have killed the child, and maybe the other evidence proves that beyond a reasonable doubt, but it seems a stretch to say he put the body where it was found. I would more easily believe that the police screwed up in their surveillance of Westerfield long enough for him to have put the body there, than to believe the wild speculation for a buck of entomologist #3.

My defense here is not of David Westerfield, but against the ridiculous and uninformed attacks on the science of forensic entomology, all based on a shameless job taken by an entomolgist offered by a prosecution desperate to muddy certain troublesome facts.

992 posted on 08/24/2002 10:46:53 AM PDT by agrandis
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To: agrandis
I argue that in light of the accompanying (circumstantial) evidence,
the specifics of the death are practically moot. Put differently, the
lack of death specifics doesn't exactly mitigate the charges against DW.

These conversations are, ultimately, stupid. We have Danielle's DNA and
fingerprints in the RV. We have the RV taken on a Where's Waldo trip
all over points east and south by exactly one person, with no one
to verify the RV's whereabouts for large swaths of time. We have this
trip happening the weekend of Danielle's disappearance. We have
the body dumped at a time which is at worst consistent with the
level of decay observed. Furthermore, we have the all-time grand champion
of the V.I. Lenin Lookalike Contest sitting absolutely mute during
the entire trial, not even issuing a harumph as the DA constructed
the state's case. Anyone with a perfectly coherent, logical account
of their whereabouts, actions, comings, and goings during the time
in question would have insisted that they have a voice in determining
their own fate. Instead of looking like someone desperate to clear their
good name, DW looked like someone merely hoping for a favorable roll of the dice.
Or, maybe DW's life means more to others than it means to him, which
again renders these discussions stupid and pointless.
993 posted on 08/24/2002 11:11:00 AM PDT by Starshine
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To: agrandis
OK. Just see if you can set up an experiment with a half dozen or so fingerprint experts. Have them take your fingerprints in the ink the police use and see if they all give opinions all over the spectrum on whether the prints are actually yours. See how it turns out.
994 posted on 08/24/2002 3:47:09 PM PDT by Greg Weston
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To: Starshine
"Furthermore, we have the all-time grand champion of the V.I. Lenin Lookalike Contest"

LOL

995 posted on 08/24/2002 3:48:08 PM PDT by Greg Weston
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To: Greg Weston
I think you're misunderstanding forensic entomology. A lot of people are now. Which is why I am going to go research this whole thing, and research this case. I will either see that the third entomologist is on to something new and important, or I'll figure out how to explain to people in detail what is wrong with the picture, I hope.
996 posted on 08/24/2002 7:04:37 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: Starshine
I have not carefully examined the non-entomological evidence, and I agree with you about the circumstantial evidence you point out. The little I know about DW, I know I wouldn't like him, and I don't particularly feel sorry for him. I don't like the "parents" of the victim, either. I don't think I'd like that neighborhood.

The most solid evidence I have seen for his guilt is a drop of the victim's blood on his jacket, and his apparent attempt to have it dry-cleaned.

But I am not a DW defender. I just can't help thinking that someone else is getting away with something, even if DW is being justly convicted. The entomological data disturbs me a great deal. As I told Greg W., I will research it more carefully.

Regardless, it gets me to see all these people (including idiot reporters) who before this trial had never even heard of forensic entomology so confidently calling it an "inexact science." They don't know what they're talking about. It's as much as an exact science as DNA analysis. As in all forensics, the handling of samples is crucial.

It's the misconceptions about forensic entomology that this case has caused that bothers me more than anything. As far as I'm concerned, the Van dammes and David Westerfield can all be lined up and shot, and I'll eat my breakfast quite heartily. Much better people have been wrongly killed.

997 posted on 08/24/2002 7:21:32 PM PDT by agrandis
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To: agrandis
I plead complete ignorance on forensic entomology, however, if five experts couldn't agree on the date of death I find it hard to believe that it's an exact science.
998 posted on 08/24/2002 10:10:57 PM PDT by Starshine
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To: FresnoDA
FresnoDA.

Gone since 8/21. RIP, dedicated spinner for convicted child-killer. I guess his contract didn't extend to the penalty phase.

999 posted on 09/05/2002 10:08:09 AM PDT by Defiant
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