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To: RonF
Some of the founders were Deists. The difference between Deism and Christians, it seems to me, is not whether God exists, or whether he can be petitioned in prayer, but in how he chooses to reveal his will. Praying to God is perfectly compatible with Deism.

Name the deists - otherwise drop it. And you are wrong about the difference. I think you should look up the definition of deism.

16 posted on 11/04/2002 3:39:01 PM PST by exmarine
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To: exmarine
According to this site, the initial precepts of Deism laid down by Lord Cherbourg in the 17th century were:

These are (1) a belief in the existence of the Deity, (2) the obligation to reverence such a power, (3) the identification of worship with practical morality, (4) the obligation to repent of sin and to abandon it, and, (5) divine recompense in this world and the next.

Further readings on the page lead to the rejection of any particular revelation of supernatural origin.

According to this site, we have:

Deism is defined in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1941, as: "[From Latin Deus, God.Deity] The doctrine or creed of a Deist." And Deist is defined in the same dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

A prime proponent of Deism in the U.S. in the 18th century was Thomas Paine, of Common Sense fame. Read here for what he himself said on this. I believe that everything you can read in these sources is consistent with the statement I made. If you have something to the contrary, please cite it and I'd be glad to review it.

Here's a site that treats both sides of the question as to whether any of the founding fathers (Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, etc.) were Deists. I've read sources where Washington, while invoking the teachings of Christ, didn't necessarily accept that they had a supernatual origin. And while he attended church services with his wife, he didn't take communion. If you didn't take communion at least twice a year in the Anglican church of that time, you weren't considered a member of the Church. And given that he deliberately avoided communion, he probably didn't consider himself one.It can be debated back and forth, but it would appear that while almost all the Founding Fathers accepted the existence of God, a 100% committment to a belief in any given supernatural origin for teachings and philosophies is questionable.

17 posted on 11/04/2002 6:50:32 PM PST by RonF
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To: exmarine
According to this site, the initial precepts of Deism laid down by Lord Cherbourg in the 17th century were:

These are (1) a belief in the existence of the Deity, (2) the obligation to reverence such a power, (3) the identification of worship with practical morality, (4) the obligation to repent of sin and to abandon it, and, (5) divine recompense in this world and the next.

Further readings on the page lead to the rejection of any particular revelation of supernatural origin.

According to this site, we have:

Deism is defined in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1941, as: "[From Latin Deus, God.Deity] The doctrine or creed of a Deist." And Deist is defined in the same dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

A prime proponent of Deism in the U.S. in the 18th century was Thomas Paine, of Common Sense fame. Read here for what he himself said on this. I believe that everything you can read in these sources is consistent with the statement I made. If you have something to the contrary, please cite it and I'd be glad to review it.

Here's a site that treats both sides of the question as to whether any of the founding fathers (Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, etc.) were Deists. I've read sources where Washington, while invoking the teachings of Christ, didn't necessarily accept that they had a supernatual origin. And while he attended church services with his wife, he didn't take communion. If you didn't take communion at least twice a year in the Anglican church of that time, you weren't considered a member of the Church. And given that he deliberately avoided communion, he probably didn't consider himself one.It can be debated back and forth, but it would appear that while almost all the Founding Fathers accepted the existence of God, a 100% committment to a belief in any given supernatural origin for teachings and philosophies is questionable.

18 posted on 11/04/2002 6:51:59 PM PST by RonF
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To: exmarine
First of all, T. Paine is not considered a founder. Was he a signer of the decl. of Indep. or Constitution? Was he a governor or general of an army? Nope. He was an atheist windbag, whose authorship of "Age of Reason" got him ostracized for the rest of his pitiful life.

Secondly, there are only 2 founders that I have ever found that can be considered deists - Franklin, Wilson, and there may be one other I missed. That's it! The rest are Christians, except Jefferson who called himself a Christian but was not orthodox in any sense.

Thirdly, deism as practiced in the 18th century revolved around a deity that is not involved in the day to day operaiton of the world or universe. He created, then stepped back and thereafter takes no part at all in life. This deistic god wound up the universe like a clock and backed off. Since he is not involved, and since deists do NOT believe miracles or divine revelation are possible, there is also no need for prayer since God does not intervene in the affairs of men. I'm afraid you need something better than Webster's which gives you a modern defintion.

19 posted on 11/05/2002 4:55:38 PM PST by exmarine
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