Russia Accused Of Killing 20,000 Chechen Civilians

Ananova ^ | 11-15-2002

[blam]

Russia accused of killing 20,000 chechen civilians

European human rights groups claim Russian forces have killed up to 20,000 Chechen civilians over the past three years.

The non-governmental organisations believe Russia deliberately targets civilians in its campaign against separatist rebels.

Russian president Vladimir Putin says the rebels are terrorists and likens Russia's campaign against them to President George Bush's "war on terror."

Though Russia agreed to a ceasefire with the rebels in the mid 1990s, they resumed fighting in Chechnya in 1999, after rebels were blamed for several bombings and attacks in the region.

Present at a conference over the Chechen crisis were representatives of Human Rights Watch, Russian rights group Memorial, the German-Caucasian Society, and Lord Judd, who reports on Chechnya to the Council of Europe.

"Our job now is to build concern over Chechnya in the political community," said Lord Judd.

He said he would work both with members of the Russian parliament and other European countries to pressure the Russian government to reform.

Lord Judd said he was disappointed at the lack of protest from European governments.

Story filed: 17:12 Friday 15th November 2002

[TigerLikesRooster]

RE #33

The Muslim Reformation you mentioned happened around the time when the Muslim empire was decaying and falling behind. It is common that the most militant sect arises to stem the tide of decay toward the fall of any country or civilization. Chinese Taipings or Boxers in 19th century is one example. The difference is that Muslims can tap into a really fanantic component in their religion and focus their frustration into deadly cold rage. The religion simply refuse to loosen its grip. It is so pervasive. The more failure Muslims have , that is all the more reason to rededicate to their religion with all militancy.

[Teacher317]

Don't you remember? Dead women and schoolchildren, especially Jewish ones, are enemy war casualties... Muslims who are killed, even if they were armed and actively killing others, are always slaughtered or murdered innocent civilians.

[Naspino]

Remember the holocaust? No not the one in Germany -- the one in Bosnia. We were told that a million had been killed and that was all the justification Clinton needed to drop bombs. Then -- after -- where were the pictures of the mass graves? The personal tragic accounts? That was BS and so is this.

[Objectivism USA]

If you had been a scholar at the time you describe as the peak of the Islamic World you would look back and make the case that Christianity had reached its peak with the Holy Roman Empire. When the Eastern and Western half split Christianity started down its long decline and would never attain its prior heights of Civilization. It is always mere speculation to attempt to predict the future. My primary disagreement with Professor Huntington is that I believe the ideas that underpin Western Civilization are superior to the ideas underpinning Confucian or Islamic societies. In the long run superior ideas will win out.

[Stavka2]

That's where you are wrong...the Chechin culture has always been criminal...the Tsars were drawn into Chechnya due to Chechin slaving of the southern colonists. Never ending...a man was brought out of Chechnya recently, into Georgia of all places...he's been a slave for 20 years...now do the math.

[Stavka2]

Hmm, lets correct a few statements, shall we?

The Chechins sided with Hitler during his ill conceived drive to the Volga....for that, the butcher of millions, only exiled the bastards...I'd say they got off pretty damn well. The Chechins slaughtered thousands as they drove out 450 thousand Russians, Georgians, Armenians and Jews from lands that were historically not theirs. Chechins did not live north of the Tarek river, the plains of Chechinya. Defend them all you want, but over half the Chechin (ethnically Chechin) population also quickly left so as not to live under the Islamics.

Do you even have a clue of what you speak of? I don't think so. Chechins targetted first: Orthodox priests...oh but they got the southern Baptists too, who had arrived as missionaries. On Easter of '94, they crusified all their prisoners. They also like to cut off our right thumb and two top fingures so that we can not cross ourselves.

As for the rest, Gudermus stands without scares or martial law. Why? Because the town elders drove out the gunmen and battle was avoided. Reality. No one pushed down on the dogs, no one. They started this mess, expended it into Ingushia and Daghistan. Sorry, the scum has and will continue to pay as long as they want to play.

The Taliban? The Taliban came around in '94...maybe you can't read history but the SOVIETS left in '91 and Russian "oppression" was helping fund Massud who was actually fighting to free Afghanistan from the Taliban.

What rock did you climb out from? Central Asia is not radical because Russian soldiers stand on it's borders and die protecting it from the radicals.

Go back to propaganda school or go preach to the Democrats, they are to stupid to learn the truth and would believe your lies.

[Stavka2]

reagan would have called them freedom fighters. That's what they want , not an islamic state.

First, your name is still just as insultive as when you first hobbled here, second, these "freedom" fighters invaded into Daghistan, slaughtering whole villages to build a greater Islamic state, as they themselves called it....oh, yeah it was only Baseyov....THE DEFENSE MINISTER OF CHECHNYA. Bugger on that one.

[Stavka2]

Yup, don't you know, we all shoot ourselves up with STDs just to get a few more Westerners.....now I understand why you took Stalin for a name. A man who hated Russians and butcher 30 million of us...your comments make much more sense now.

[Stavka2]

By the way, maybe if the potbellied dork didn't expect a slave to pick up after him, he might not have so much trouble with his own women to go hunting somewhere else.

[Stavka2]

Dude, high Islamic civilization? No conversions? Go read some real history...follow some of the links on my profile, educate yourself about the reality.

[Walkin Man]

The "peaceful" followers of Islam give no quarter to man, women, or child, why should they get any? Fair is fair, no?

[Stavka2]

By the way, another correction to your history: The Holy Roman Empire, or the idea of it was created under Charlemaine, in the 10th centuary not under Constantine the Great when he Christianed the real Roman Empire.

[Stavka2]

Furthermore, the split came 400 years after the Western Empire had collapsed and the Bzyntine Empire (Eastern Empire) had survived on.

[dasboot]

Roger that,

I recall reading about the power struggle in the region in National Geographic a number of years ago. I think it takes place over the heads of the Chechen tribes, however; and revolves more around who has the rights to develop among the parties if, and when, a stable situation can be established: some non-violent , capitalistic pre-positioning competition. I could be wrong about this, and be overlooking some nefarious subterfuge on the part of one of the players.

More than that, though, I think that Russia, having a prior claim to the region, has the strongest hand. And there's always the obvious strategic importance of maintaing contiguous borders with Georgia. An independent Chechnya, governed by Chechins, would, no doubt, imperil the very thin edge the present Georgian government has over its indiginous Moslem rads: rads who would seek pan-Arabian alliance.....very bad news. I can imagine the word would quake at the disaster of an Islamic Georgia--with nukes--and the threat to security and civilization--especially to Russia--that such an outcome would engender.

In short, while petro-dollars are certainly a factor in the mix, I believe that Russians fear terror-wars on their borders--like those between Palistine and Israel--a lot more than who gets all the gold. Fact is, that no matter who governs the region, as long as they're a rational player, all in the region, and the world, benefit.

The communist old-guard in Russia would welcome Chechen independence and rout in Georgia: an opportunity the shake Putin from the throne, retake and rebuild the USSR, and vanquish their erstwhile allies, the Chechens, in an abslutely horrible attack and occupation that would make the late atrocities seem only unreasonable by comparison.

[stalin]

ref 47 ; Reagan still would have called them freedom fighters.

I'm all for Russian being in control of muslim populations. Islamists can't govern themselves in a cililized manner.

I was in Russia when they invaded Daghistan. I was living in an apparment in Moscow when three of them were blow up. I was rooting for the Rusians to move in an put an end to the islamist fundamentalist movement. It wasn't a sure thing at the time. They weren't fairing very well in Dagistan at first for the same reasons they lost the first Chechen war.

The problem is that they go too far. When Russia got it's act together under Putins direction and started winning , the Chechen government tried to surrender unconditionaly. Putin refused because it made him more popular to slaughter Chechins. The resulting slaughter on both sides was much more terrible than was necessary.

The Russians didn't just kill Islamists. They indiscriminatly murdered raped and touchered the inocent population by the tens of thousands in the first war. They wern't quite as bad in the second war ( one of the reasons they won ) They still went way too far. That was counter productive.

Like they did in the theater. They have emotional knee jerk responces which are understandable but not as effective at prodicing the desired outcome.

The invation of Dagistan was a result of a fractured political structure in Chechnya. It would have required civil war for a moderate central government to reign in the minority Islamist elements that were trying to take over the area.

Russian should have accepted the surrender and formed a partnership with the majority moderate non-islamists to drive out the radicals. They could have done it without as much innocent blood being spilled on both sides ; resulting in much more stability in the region.

[stalin]

Russia goes too far and America doesn't go far enouph. Russians kill the inocents intentionally and Americans are so worried about killing inocents we don't kill the enemy.

[Burkeman1]

The fact remains that Islam was far more tolerant of other religions in it's early years and was far more advanced in nearly every way one measures civilization than Europe from the years 800 to 1400. Not many dispute this and you would be hard pressed to find a historian who would.

[Objectivism USA]

It is so nice to be educated by someone such as your self who is incapable of finding a single fault with my statements so he simply resorts to his own imagination in order create a straw-man and pretend it represents my argument. If you want to argue with yourself fine but don’t involve me in your little fantasy world.

[TigerLikesRooster]

Re #54

Russia did fear terror wars then and they do it now. The difference is that previously terrorists(Jihadists)had Western interests on their side. But Jihadists no long do now. Russia was being pushed back, away from the access to Caspain oil. At the same time Jihadists were making their way into S. Russia. A double jeopardy for Russia. Probably the best scenario for these Western players was to set up another Saudi Arabia around the Caspian Basin, a Muslim state which is cooperating with the West, just as Saudi once was.

[Stavka2]

Well if you knew history instead of half arsing it, I'd move into actually argueing your points....get your facts right then we can talk...if anyone is living in make believe land, it is you...but I guess that's probably the fault of the education system. As for faults there are plenty...fix the mistakes, then we'll talk about the faults.