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To: SAMWolf
It is an interesting problem.

How much free trade is good?

Taken to its ultimate evolution, nothing would be made in America because everything can be made cheaper in a third world country.

So, when we get to the point that nothing is manufactured here any more, what do all of those Americans that are out of work do for a living???

Countries are literally defined by the basket of goods and services they offer. What is the problem with defining our country around a set of goods and services and using our ability to cause pain to others to enforce our position?

America already has a serious current account deficit. That means we purchase more stuff from abroad than we sell to foreigners. No country can sustain a current account deficit for more than three years at a rate of 5% or more without seeing a devaluation of its currency. We are there this year.

So the theory is that free trade is good for business. The problem is that not every American is in or is a part of a business that benefits from free trade.

If shoes cost a dollar, what does that matter if you have not a dime in your pocket??

The really scary thing about all of this free trade to me is that at some point when this country has a serious "depression class" economic problem (~2010) then we will have devolved our working class to the status of the third world and other countries will bring very low paying jobs back to America in order to profit the business of other countries. Not only will Americans take the jobs but we will relax all the rules and regs in order to have the work.

So, for all of you who so rabidly and blindly advocate total free trade post answers back to these questions:

1 - When nothing is made here any more, where will you work?

2 - When the majority of the country is unable to earn a living wage, who will you serve?

3 - What do you think constitutes a reasonable balance??

I don't know what the right answer is, but I do know that if we do not stand together, we will fall apart together.

29 posted on 11/25/2002 8:54:46 AM PST by Pylot
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To: Pylot
Taken to its ultimate evolution, nothing would be made in America because everything can be made cheaper in a third world country.

This has more to do with the usurpation of free market rights than trade restrictions or lack thereof. Government controled (fascist) wage and price controls make foreign manufacturing more cost efficent. Don't blame the freemarket for the failures caused by the restrictions upon it.

So, when we get to the point that nothing is manufactured here any more, what do all of those Americans that are out of work do for a living???

You might peruse two graphs at the same time. The first one showing the rate of manufacturing going away from the country, and the other showing the employment rate. It might illustrate the wrong thinking involved in the conclusions you draw.

36 posted on 11/25/2002 9:03:02 AM PST by Protagoras
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To: Pylot
1 - When nothing is made here any more, where will you work?

The problem with your assessment is that you stated that EVERYTHING can be made cheaper in third world countries. Cheap isn't the only qualifier. Efficiency is. That takes into account, quality, price, time frame, ect. Obviously, we have resources that other countries do not. Our top resource is knowledge and technology. Products still require research and development, engineering, ect. The fact that our resources are free from menial, cheap, unskilled labor means that we can focus completely on higher end jobs, which results in us being the most efficient in performing those services.

2 - When the majority of the country is unable to earn a living wage, who will you serve? How will that happen? Even if, somehow, that happened, that would simply create a micro economy within our nation that would serve itself, and as the major companies lost business, they would be forced to participate in it. It will always be self correcting. You need to get out of the "us vs them" mentality when it comes to the economy. Buying products from Tanzania should be viewed no different than buying products from a State on the other side of the country. Imagine if I snapped my fingers and all of the world was America. Would you still fight against getting products from another continent? 3 - What do you think constitutes a reasonable balance??

Whatever it is, the FREE market will find that out on it's own.

38 posted on 11/25/2002 9:08:59 AM PST by Texaggie79
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To: Pylot
So, for all of you who so rabidly and blindly advocate total free trade post answers back to these questions:
1 - When nothing is made here any more, where will you work?

The question assumes the answer, namely that "nothing" will be made here at some point. That is of course, incorrect.

2 - When the majority of the country is unable to earn a living wage, who will you serve?

The majority of our country will always be more able to earn a living compared to the rest of the world as long as we are freer than them. Your "solution" makes us less free, therefore, if it happens, it will be a self fulfilling prediction.

3 - What do you think constitutes a reasonable balance??

You don't have to think about it, the market will decide.

40 posted on 11/25/2002 9:16:45 AM PST by Protagoras
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To: Pylot; Jonathon Spectre
How much free trade is good?

All that we can obtain. "If an exchange between two parties is voluntary, it will not take place unless both believe they will benefit from it. Most economic fallacies derive from the neglect of this simple insight, from the tendency to assume that there is a fixed pie, that one party can gain only at the expense of another." -Milton Friedman

Taken to its ultimate evolution, nothing would be made in America because everything can be made cheaper in a third world country.

That's a fallacy. There are more than simply the costs of labor to consider. Workmanship, transportation and competitive advantage are just a few others.

So, when we get to the point that nothing is manufactured here any more, what do all of those Americans that are out of work do for a living???

They do that which their neighbors most desire from them and they are most able to do, if they seek the highest rewards for their time.

Countries are literally defined by the basket of goods and services they offer. What is the problem with defining our country around a set of goods and services and using our ability to cause pain to others to enforce our position?

The purpose of the government is to defend my liberty and property. Not to cause pain to me or those I seek to trade with.

America already has a serious current account deficit. That means we purchase more stuff from abroad than we sell to foreigners. No country can sustain a current account deficit for more than three years at a rate of 5% or more without seeing a devaluation of its currency. We are there this year.

A devaluation of our currency by foreign holders of said currency would only be a price response to our government's inflation and the holder's own preference for what price to sell his goods. His pricing power is, of course, limited by his competition, and the demand of American consumers. There's nothing nefarious or bad about this (well, aside from our government devaluing our money via inflation).

So the theory is that free trade is good for business. The problem is that not every American is in or is a part of a business that benefits from free trade.

So what? Not every American was in the candlemaking business when light bulbs were invented. The candlemakers had to adjust to meet the demands of those who have money to exchange. This is beneficial as it steers production (of goods and services) to meet demands. Surely you don't hold otherwise?!

If shoes cost a dollar, what does that matter if you have not a dime in your pocket??

Non sequitor. If you want to make money you have to do something that people want. It matters not that your father, and your father's father were candlemakers. Times, thankfully, change.

1 - When nothing is made here any more, where will you work?

I will work in a capacity that meets the demands of my neighbors for goods and services. No different than now.

2 - When the majority of the country is unable to earn a living wage, who will you serve?

Why would people be unable to earn a living wage? Free trade has boosted the standard of living of Americans to the lead in the world. Our poor have air conditioning, refrigeration, automobiles, and a host of goods that would have been unthinkable luxuries for the rich just 150 years ago. The reason this has taken place is specialization of labor and the associated relative reduction in costs. You propose undercutting the process that has made us the envy of the world. Limiting our ability to cut consumer costs would only serve to stagnate the standard of living by locking spending on goods at their current level.

3 - What do you think constitutes a reasonable balance??

The most reasonable course is to not thwart the very system that generates our wealth. You, nor any other bureaucrat, is endowed with the foresight to arbitrarily set price and wage levels. That is the economic nonsense that bankrupted the USSR. Quit trying to institute the madness here!

71 posted on 11/25/2002 9:57:20 AM PST by Gunslingr3
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To: Pylot
If shoes cost a dollar, what does that matter if you have not a dime in your pocket?? ...

...So, for all of you who so rabidly and blindly advocate total free trade post answers back to these questions:
1 - When nothing is made here any more, where will you work?
2 - When the majority of the country is unable to earn a living wage, who will you serve?
3 - What do you think constitutes a reasonable balance??
I don't know what the right answer is, but I do know that if we do not stand together, we will fall apart together...

Free markets simply put:

Necessity (need or want) is the mother of invention.
- If American workers are out of jobs, it is because those workers have fallen into the trap of thinking they can "coast". As in a previous example: If suddenly buggies are no longer needed, you MUST accept that life means change, and you then retrain yourself - new skills, or a new service. A large number (a majority???) of Americans have adopted the idea that life should be "safe", and thus will gravitate towards those who promise them a continuous saftey "net" to save them from life's little annoyances. In the end , like a spoiled child, having been given everything it wants, they are shocked and dismayed to find that the only one that gives a damn is the politician who says 'Follow me to the promised land of free milk and honey - I feel your pain and I will keep you safe'. Which really means keeping you from hurting yourself - doomed to never learning from your mistakes.

Supply & demand
- GREEDY corporations - or anyone for that matter - don't get rich unless they provide a good or service that someone else is willing to purchase. That is why Free Market Capitalism is the most moral of all economic systems - if the seller disrespects the buyer, the buyer will go somewhere else.

(Frustratingly)
I don't know how the early pioneers ever made it across the Great Plains without the Guvmint making sure they were treated fairly each step of the way...

Regards,

156 posted on 11/25/2002 11:58:39 AM PST by jonno
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