Archaeologists Announce Discovery Of Underwater Man-Made Wall (Very Old)

China Post ^ | 11-26-2002

[mdmathis6]

FLOOD FLOOD FLOOD! Doesn't anyone get it!

[Carry_Okie]

I was unaware of the Celts worshipping El, Baal, and that crowd.

That's a bit literal given that paganism takes so many forms across so many nations while the principles and rites stay more coherent as one might expect: a living planet with a spirit of divinity in every thing and being, fertility rites, child sacrifice, sex magic, spirits retained in trees...

I have come to the conclusion that this coherence is a consequence of the global reach of the Phoenecian merchant fleet which considerably predates the breakup of Israel. Consider how the stories of Osiris, Ishtar, Gilgamesh, etc. repeat in many cultures under numerous names. I have only begun my study of this realm but have already been struck by the parallelism in the lore.

[William Terrell]

If you aren't going to try, there's not much to say.

You've been introduced to the facts of any effort I would put out already, on this thread at least.

Your quote doesn't say where the original Celts came from. All people come from somewhere. When Saint Paul went up into Europe and built his churches, he found his people (Isrealites) already there. A thousand years before the Nothern tribes escaped, Israelites took their hats out of Egypt and didn't go home. The only other place they could have gone was Africa and Europe. That matches your time period.

What can a bunch of people do in a vast area in a milenium? A lot wouldn't you suppose?

So we have Old Celts and New Celts. Apparently the common identification as "celt" indicates the two groups were somehow related to the naked eye.

The Northern Kingdom tribes left their captivity around 610ish BC. They were just south of the Causcaus mountains. and northerly was the direction away from their oppressors. It doesn't take a rocket scientist.

But anyway, all this is a real page-turner, but the question remains, who are the descendents of the lost tribes? In order for them to be as the stars in the sky, they would have had to be a major population in any sequential period in history, including this one.

What other candidates?

[VadeRetro]

"Other" candidates? There appear to be no candidates at all.

So now the Lost Tribes of Israel were already scattered before the Assyrian conquest of the Northern Kingdom? Or, at any rate, it's not a problem?

Nothing matches here. Nothing. Not language, not religion, not culture, not timing. Except for that, it's perfect, yes.

[William Terrell]

Aren't you glad you dignified your arguments with that?

Let me dignify it again:

"Further, is there anything basically wrong with the European types peoples being the descendents, which would justify the frequently emotional reaction of people, out here at least, to that idea? You know what I mean. You can almost hear the echo in the outraged posts: Oh God! No! Not them! Anybody but them!"

Do you have a theory about this reaction on the part of many (maybe even most) that actually post to discussions of the idea? Or tell me that you're oblivious to it.

[VadeRetro]

Do you have a theory about this reaction on the part of many (maybe even most) that actually post to discussions of the idea? Or tell me that you're oblivious to it.

It's not my reaction and it's a cheap trick worthy of the liberals on your part. You can advocate anything you want about who the Celts were before they were the Celts, or who the Lost Tribes were afer they were the Lost Tribes, but make a case for it. Get off your butt! I'm not going to play that much offense here. You're the one with something to sell.

[VadeRetro]

So we have Old Celts and New Celts.

So you're saying that, in advance of the collapse of the Northern Kingdom, a wave of Jewish emmigration went to Europe and underwent a language shift to Celtic. They didn't merge with a pre-existing Celtic people; they became the Celts, first wave. They just happened to invent a new language more similar to the ones already there than the one they already had. If they knew how to write, they forgot again until they eventually invented runes. If they were monotheists, they forgot. If they remembered anything of their old pottery and metallurgy styles, they forgot.

Then the Lost Tribes escaped circa 610 BC and became the Celts, second wave. They just happened to invent a new Indoeuropean language similar to the one invented by the Celts, first wave.

So, basically, every time you move a wave of Semitic speakers to Europe, they immediately lose all trace of their language and culture. This includes forgetting for some hundreds of years how to write.

And the evidence for all this is that you don't see the problem with it.

[VadeRetro]

Consider how the stories of Osiris, Ishtar, Gilgamesh, etc. repeat in many cultures under numerous names.

The diffusion of the Osiris cult is late and comes from the infatuation of Romans in the early Empire period with Egyptian culture, resulting in attempts at synthesis. Marguerite Yourcenar's novelized history Memoirs of Hadrian deals with the topic. Ishtar/Astarte/Artemis may have been helped along by the Phoenicians, yes. Gilgamesh was long lost to human memory until one version in Akkadian cuneiform was deciphered in 1853. Older versions have been found since.

All of this is a long way from proving that anybody generally unsuspected is a Lost Tribe of Israel.

[Little Bill]

You missed the fact that they must have picked up some rather nasty cultural traits such as head hunting and human sacrifice, doesnt sound to Jewish to me.

[VadeRetro]

There's nothing that's the same. Therefore, it must be them!

[MHGinTN]

Question: Weren't the Gilgamesh legends written on tablets found in the library at Ninevah, the last great capital city of the empire conquered by the Medes and Babylonians? The library represented an effort to amass the collected wisdom/mythos of a vast realm. As such, the clay tablets were recording stories already legends in the time of Ninevah's library construction. I've done some research on 'Eden Garden' myths and the tree of life.

[VadeRetro]

Yes. The tablets were late copies that had been in a library at Nineveh, 600s BC. I read a web page earlier tonight that gave some specifics.

[VadeRetro]

As such, the clay tablets were recording stories already legends in the time of Ninevah's library construction. I've done some research on 'Eden Garden' myths and the tree of life.

I think Gilgamesh goes all the way back to the Sumerians, but I'll have to look at it again tomorrow.

[Carry_Okie]

I think Gilgamesh goes all the way back to the Sumerians, but I'll have to look at it again tomorrow.

Correct. It tracks with Noah right down to the release of doves to find land.

[PaulKersey]

It's not my reaction and it's a cheap trick worthy of the liberals on your part.

I think Mr. Terill has made a very good case for the Celts and his question about "who is doing the most sqawking and why" is not off target. Like the Romans say, "examine who wins and who loses?"

> You can advocate anything you want about who the Celts were before they were the Celts, or who the Lost Tribes were afer they were the Lost Tribes, but make a case for it. Get off your butt!

Looks to me you need to get off your butt and check out his sources. Can all those Assyrians who were actually there and who tell their story in those clay tablets in the Museum know you something that you don't know? You have been reduced to repeating shibboleths.

Why don't you answer his questions about Hosea instead of ducking and dodging?

[Carry_Okie]

The diffusion of the Osiris cult is late and comes from the infatuation of Romans in the early Empire period with Egyptian culture, resulting in attempts at synthesis. Marguerite Yourcenar's novelized history Memoirs of Hadrian deals with the topic. Ishtar/Astarte/Artemis may have been helped along by the Phoenicians, yes.

I think it's older and broader than that, but my study on Baal worship will have to wait until Sunday (part of my homework :-).

[PaulKersey]

So you're saying that, in advance of the collapse of the Northern Kingdom, a wave of Jewish emmigration went to Europe and underwent a language shift to Celtic.

I don't see that anywhere in this thread. You're just making that up.

Besides, if there were no Jews until after Babylon these people were not Jews anyway. They would have been Isralites, right?

They just happened to invent a new language more similar to the ones already there than the one they already had.

I've seen other posts on this (or other) thread which say that there are many similarities between european languages today and early hebrew. If that's true, they were not inventing any new language at all.

If they knew how to write, they forgot again until they eventually invented runes.

That doesn't ring true. One of the backbones of Celtic history is that they didn't keep written records because of religious and cultural reasons. That has nothing to do with being able to read and write.

If they were monotheists, they forgot.

Oh c'mon now, you know all of the Israelites from both Kingdoms worshipped the golden calf under Moses. They were all guilty of polytheism!

If they remembered anything of their old pottery and metallurgy styles, they forgot.

That's just as absurd. The effusive Celtic style which is seen in all the picture books about the Celts says that's crazy!

Then the Lost Tribes escaped circa 610 BC and became the Celts, second wave. They just happened to invent a new Indoeuropean language similar to the one invented by the Celts, first wave.

Why should that seem far fetched? both old and new were loosely based on the same hebrew.

I think you have a lot of explaining to do to convert your half-truths and innuendo into a coherent argument why the celts are not Israelites. If they are not, then where did all those millions of celts in Assyria come from the same time those millions of israelites in assyria disappeared? Your going to run out of millions there pretty fast!

[the-ironically-named-proverbs2]

"I have heard of Velikovsky, but haven't read any of his work. I have scanned criticism's of his theories that did make sense to me (the gist of which escapes me right now)...

This is not surprising. His critics are/were the most well know scientists out there. Did you ever wonder why you may have read his critics, and not Velikovsky himself? (I realize that just by mentioning his name I'll be branded a kook). I've been waiting over 4 months to recieve a used copy of Ages in Chaos. You can order any of the books about his work by his critics from Amazon.com. I'm not necessarily pushing his work, but I think it does deserve to be considered (and would be very curious to hear your opinion of it, if you would give it a fair chance). I think you would enjoy reading his work because you've been all over his territory in this thread without even knowing it.

There is also this thing called the "Velikovsky affair". It's a documented account of how the mainstream scientific community tried to stop his original book from being published- before anyone even read it. Peers wrote scathing reviews without reading the manuscript, and the publisher of the book (which became a best-seller) was blackballed and coersed to drop him. Most of the people who gave him any support at all lost grants and positions at universities. It's a very interesting account of PC science versus some new ideas about things.

(BTW I checked out the web page about your book several months ago and think it looks very interesting- maybe over my head though. I own property along a river and have been waiting for the day that the govt. comes to claim it. I consider myself the custodian and protector of the land and spend most of my time trying to keep city folk from destroying it. Everyone that stumbles upon it thinks it should be public land because it's so "pretty". The funny thing they don't get is that it wouldn't stay pretty for long if I didn't run them off.)

[the-ironically-named-proverbs2]

Thanks for the lead on the book. (I'm at least 1/4 American Indian BTW)