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Catholic Groups Sue Over Christmas Display Discrimination
Traditional Values Coalition ^ | 12-12-02 | Tradional Values

Posted on 12/14/2002 5:19:36 AM PST by Salvation

Catholic Groups Sue Over Christmas Display Discrimination
Thursday, December 12 @ 22:57:38 EST Religious Persecution

Summary: The Catholic League and Thomas More Law Center have joined in a lawsuit against the City of New York Department of Education on its discriminatory policies against Christmas displays during the Christmas holiday season.

The Catholic League and Thomas More Law Center are suing the New York Education Department for its discriminatory policies against the display of Christian symbols this Christmas season.

According to Catholic League President Bill Donohue, the education department has issued guidelines permitting the display of Christmas trees, the Jewish Menorah, and the Islamic Star and Crescent, but bans the Nativity Scene. The department policy claims that these various symbols are “secular” in nature. Donohue vigorously disagrees: “…It is disingenuous to maintain that the Menorah is not as fully religious in heritage as the Nativity Scene is …. All we want is parity with Jews and Muslims.”

Richard Thompson, Chief Counsel of the Thomas More Law Center notes: “This policy relegates Christians to second class citizens. Forcing schools to only allow secular symbols for Christmas while allowing religious symbols for other religions’ holiday observances shows a callous indifference and hostility toward Christians during one of their holiest seasons.”

For more on this controversy, go to: CATHOLIC LEAGUE for Religious and Civil Rights and Thomas More Center For Law & Justice

TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; catholics; christian; christianpersecutio; christmas; civilrights; discrimination; display; nyeddept; symbols; thomasmorectr; waronchristmas
For your information and discussion

Sarcasm Alert -- will the ACLU ever come to the defense of a Christian organization?

1 posted on 12/14/2002 5:19:37 AM PST by Salvation
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To: Salvation
Also Ban on Christmas leads to court fight
2 posted on 12/14/2002 5:28:10 AM PST by Salvation
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To: Salvation
Thank God, its about time. No its past time.
3 posted on 12/14/2002 5:29:43 AM PST by TexKat
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To: Salvation
will the ACLU ever come to the defense of a Christian organization?

Sadly, I think not.

But I'm glad somebody is pursuing this case. I've never understood how overtly religious symbols of other religions qualify for public display, while even the most "secularized" signs of Christianity (such as the Christmas tree) are often forbidden. And things such as manger scenes or even lighted stars - forget it.

4 posted on 12/14/2002 5:32:51 AM PST by livius
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To: Salvation
A law suit is horrible but it is nice to see the so called ULTRA RIGHT WINGERS defend themselves!!!

LOL to the ACLU helping in the defense>

And I am sure NOW is appalled by the lack of nativity scenes. < / sarcasm >

5 posted on 12/14/2002 5:33:14 AM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: billbears; patent; 68-69TonkinGulfYatchClub; fatima; amom; Alamo-Girl; Coleus; Free the USA; ...
6 posted on 12/14/2002 5:34:07 AM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: Salvation

7 posted on 12/14/2002 5:35:00 AM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: Salvation

OK, so it's not common Christian imagery, but maybe it should be...

8 posted on 12/14/2002 5:47:38 AM PST by Caipirabob
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To: *Catholic_list; father_elijah; nickcarraway; SMEDLEYBUTLER; Siobhan; Lady In Blue; attagirl; ...
Catholic/Christian Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via Freepmail if you would like to be added to or removed from the Catholic/Christian Discussion Ping list.

9 posted on 12/14/2002 5:49:16 AM PST by Salvation
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To: Yakboy
Love it!
10 posted on 12/14/2002 5:50:04 AM PST by Salvation
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To: Salvation
it's about time --
11 posted on 12/14/2002 5:51:20 AM PST by victim soul
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To: TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
Thanks for the bump!
12 posted on 12/14/2002 5:58:04 AM PST by Salvation
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To: Salvation

13 posted on 12/14/2002 6:15:18 AM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
Religious Persecution -- we may need to get a bump list category for that -- no?
14 posted on 12/14/2002 6:16:39 AM PST by Salvation
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To: Salvation; All

Christmas in America
becomes battleground

As holiday traditions draw national controversy, believers, pagans grapple over Jesus' inclusion

Posted: December 14, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Joe Kovacs
© 2002

Every December, a call goes out from the nation's pulpits to "put Christ back into Christmas," but growing numbers of Americans – including fundamentalist Christians – are claiming Jesus Christ had nothing to do with the holiday, and news items from across the country this week indicate that the U.S. has become the new battleground for Christmas.

Cases in point:

All this comes on the heels of a national survey indicating just over a tenth of Americans today believe Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the focus of Christmas, with almost nine out of ten people saying the holiday has become less religious.

Are atheists correct that the very day set aside by hundreds of millions across the world to honor the birth of their Savior is merely a relic of sun worship? And if it is, why would some schools ban it? And even if today's holiday traditions have their roots in heathen practices, should Christians who wish to be true to their faith take part?

Sign of the times

"The real reason for the season is winter solstice," proclaims Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-founder of the Madison, Wis.-based Freedom From Religion Foundation which re-erected its atheistic message Monday in the rotunda of the state seat of government.

After six years on display, her placard had been damaged last December by an unknown assailant, and has since been repaired.

Atheists' winter solstice sign at Wisconsin Capitol

The front of the sign states: "At this season of the winter solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

The back reads: "State/Church: Keep them separate," and carries a little caveat, advising "Thou shalt not steal."

The 23-by-30-inch billboard was OK'd as part of Wisconsin's seasonal display which also features menorahs, angels, and what appears to be a giant Christmas tree more than two stories tall.

"We call it a 'holiday' tree," said Brian Hayes, deputy secretary for Wisconsin's department of administration. "We're trying to be sensitive to [the public]."

That politically correct terminology comes despite the dismissal of a lawsuit last year where the message content of items adorning the state tree had been challenged, yet it's indicative of the thought-conscious age of the 21st century.

Banned in the USA

The fact that atheists view Christmas with disdain is not astonishing, since they've attempted to remove the phrase "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God we trust" from U.S. currency, as well as Ten Commandments displays from numerous publicly owned places.

What may be surprising, though, is that some devout Christians, many dating all the way back to the days of Jesus, never celebrated the birth of Christ, nor sought to. America's early colonists banned observance of Christmas, and still today, there are many Christians abstaining from what millions more of their brethren joyfully celebrate as God's coming in human form.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states, '"the word for Christmas in late Old English is Cristes Maesse, the Mass of Christ, first found in 1038, and Cristes-messe, in 1131."

It explains "Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church," pointing out "first evidence of the feast is from Egypt" around A.D. 200 with attempts by theologians to assign not only the year of Christ's birth, but also the precise date.

Historians agree that through the subsequent centuries, traditions from ancient pagan (non-Christian) religions became intertwined with those of Christianity, and depending upon one's point of view, either paganism became Christianized, or Christianity became paganized.

In 1644, the English Parliament, outlawed the holiday, compelling shops to be open that day, and condemning plum puddings and mince pies as "heathen."

In his Pulitzer Prize finalist, "The Battle for Christmas," historian Stephen Nissenbaum at the University of Massachusetts documents the American development of the holiday now ensconced in popular culture.

"In New England, for the first two centuries of white settlement," writes Nissenbaum, "most people did not celebrate Christmas. In fact, the holiday was systematically suppressed by Puritans during the colonial period and largely ignored by their descendants. It was actually illegal to celebrate Christmas in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681 (the fine was five shillings). Only in the middle of the nineteenth century did Christmas gain legal recognition as an official public holiday in New England."

Nissenbaum agrees with other historians that the first recorded observance since the New Testament recounted Christ's birth took place hundreds of years after Jesus' resurrection.

"It was only in the fourth century that the Church officially decided to observe Christmas on Dec. 25. And this date was not chosen for religious reasons but simply because it happened to mark the approximate arrival of the winter solstice, an event that was celebrated long before the advent of Christianity. The Puritans were correct when they pointed out – and they pointed it out often – that Christmas was nothing but a pagan festival covered with a Christian veneer."

Christmas in America saw huge growth during the 19th century, starting with Washington Irving's 1820 book "The Keeping of Christmas at Bracebridge Hall." A week before Christmas in 1834, Charles Dickens published "A Christmas Carol," and in 1860, American illustrator Thomas Nast created Father Christmas, also known as Santa Claus, based on European stories of St. Nicholas, the patron saint of children.

Spirit of the rising sun

Today, followers of ancient paganism strive to remind the public about the heathen origins of traditions that many may never have questioned. They've published books, given speeches, and created websites proffering a heathen history of modern customs. is among the Internet addresses run by nature-worshipping pagans. Author Selena Fox discusses the state of being pagan and celebrating the lengthening of days during the Northern Hemisphere's darkest time of year.

Fox even provides a list of suggestions on how 21st century citizens can take part in the ancient rituals, to "re-paganize" Christmastime:

The greatest story never told?

The pagan connections to Christmas are not news to the likes of Garner Ted Armstrong, a Christian evangelist and political commentator based in Tyler, Texas. Armstrong has been proclaiming such information for the past 46 years on a peak of 135 television and 360 radio stations, stating "it is impossible to 'put Christ back in Christmas,' since He was never in Christmas in the first place!"

"None of the apostles of Christ ever heard of the term; not one of them ever celebrated Christ's birthday," writes Armstrong in his booklet "Christmas ... The Untold Story." "The words Christmas, holly wreath, mistletoe, Rudolph, Santa Claus and Christmas tree do not appear anywhere in the Bible."

Armstrong is among Christians who believe God's plan of salvation for mankind is more accurately depicted through holidays which are frequently mentioned in Scripture, such as Passover and the Day of Atonement. If anything, he thinks Dec. 25 would most likely be Jesus' conception day, thus placing his birth in the autumn, possibly during the Feast of Tabernacles, symbolizing God's "tabernacling" – that is to say, dwelling – with mankind.

Like-minded preachers say the Bible warns extensively about adopting pagan customs, pointing to the 10th chapter of Jeremiah to specifically cite the practice of tree decoration, which some historians date back to ancient Egypt and Babylon:

Armstrong says the pagan celebrations, including winter's Saturnalia, or feast of Saturn in ancient Rome, crept into ostensible Christianity over many years, and some writers began urging a celebration at the same time as the secular events "for the simple reason that so many pagans were already accustomed to 'joyous,' sometimes 'riotous' orgies of feasting at the time of the winter solstice."

"It would be a sin for me [to celebrate Christmas], but it doesn't mean it's the unpardonable sin," Armstrong told WorldNetDaily, stressing he doesn't feel at all threatened by the holiday.

"I have no more difficulty walking through Beijing at the Chinese New Year and seeing the dragons and fireworks. It doesn't affect me. ... [the Apostle] Paul says the idol is nothing."

While Armstrong teaches against the observance of Christmas, he adds that most people who celebrate it are doing so with good intentions, simply unaware of the facts regarding its origins, and they should neither be judged nor condemned by fellow believers in Jesus. He encourages people to type words like "origins of Christmas" into Internet search engines to find out for themselves the background on the customs.

Angels in the outfield

For millions of Christians, the story of Christmas in the Bible is among the most beloved, and is one of their foundations of faith – that God came to dwell as a man and offer eternal life to mankind. It is both simple enough to be understood by young children, and has majestic meaning to provide adults with inspiration and awe.

The events surrounding the birth of Christ are recorded in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, which give an almost play-by-play description:

The shepherds subsequently found the child in the manger, but unlike depictions on many modern holiday cards and Nativity scenes, there were no wise men present at the birth. The Gospel of Matthew says the Magi arrived at a house, not the manger. And as for the tradition of three wise men, the Bible never mentions their number – only the three gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. Those gifts were presented to Jesus, not exchanged with other people.

The accounts don't mention a tree – evergreen or otherwise – nor do they specify the time of year. Some analysts theorize that since the shepherds were still out in the fields by night watching their flocks, the event could not have been in winter, due to plunging temperatures. Still others think Dec. 25 has a valid claim on the actual event.

Spirit of the rising Son

"I believe the celebration of Christmas is a wonderful opportunity to honor Christ and share the gospel," says Rev. Jerry Falwell, chancellor of Liberty University in Virginia and one of America's best known ministers. Falwell is a staunch defender of the holiday he's celebrated for every one of the 69 years he's been alive.

"And I plan to celebrate it on the 'other side,'" he tells WorldNetDaily.

Falwell acknowledges that many of the customs associated with the observance are not found in the Bible, but he doesn't have a problem with that.

"The Christmas tree and Santa Claus don't bother me," he said. "If we can use anything to get people under the sound of the gospel, without violating Scripture, it's a good thing."

While there are some unknowns such as the exact date of birth, Falwell stresses "we do know He was born – virgin-born as the Son of God."

Yet over 2,000 years after that history-changing event, most Americans think Christ is fading from the Christmas picture, at least according to a recent poll.

When the Scripps Survey Research Center at Ohio University asked if "most people focus on the birth of Jesus at Christmas time, or has the holiday become less religious than it used to be?" only 11 percent said they believed Christmas was still about Jesus, with 87 percent responding "less religious."

Close to half of adults – 45 percent – say they personally know someone who doesn't believe in God, but still will celebrate the holiday this year; 62 percent say they'll attend a religious service on Christmas Eve or Day; and 81 percent plan to put a decorated tree in their home this year.

"Do I put up a tree? I have in the past; this year I won't," says Jose Negron, a 34-year-old Christian minister at the Stonehouse Church to the Nations in Toano, Va. Even without the tree, he still plans to celebrate Christmas.

"I grew up in America. It's an historical constant," Negron said.

President Franklin Roosevelt dedicated the National Christmas Tree in 1940

Indeed, trees and their decoration have played a role in American history, even in the nation's darkest hours. In 1942, just a year after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill came to Washington to join President Franklin Roosevelt in lighting the National Christmas Tree, a tradition started by Calvin Coolidge in 1923.

"Against enemies who preach the principles of hate and practice them, we set our faith in human love and in God's care for us all men everywhere," said Roosevelt.

Thousands of citizens turned out for the event, which was broadcast nationwide on radio in the grips of World War II.

"Let the children have their night of fun and laughter," proclaimed Churchill. "Let the gifts of Father Christmas delight their play. Let us grown-ups share to the full in their unstinted pleasures before we turn again to the stern task and formidable years that lie before us, resolved that, by our sacrifice and daring, these same children shall not be robbed of their inheritance or denied the right to live in a free and decent world."

The tree-lighting ceremonies continue to this day, with President George W. Bush having two dedications under his belt.

The history of mankind's fascination with trees long antedates World War II, the founding of America, and even the Middle Ages. Historians have found evidence of tree decoration and tree worship in places such as ancient Rome and Egypt. The Old Testament also records God's displeasure with his own people for following pagan practices involving trees:

In the 1800s, Alexander Hislop, a noted historian of antiquity, examined the origins of customs such as the Christmas tree and date of celebration. Writing in "The Two Babylons," Hislop maintains the practice derives from the worship of pagan deities.

The 2001 National Christmas Tree took on patriotic colors in the wake of the Sept. 11 terror attacks

"I can count about a hundred trees, wreaths, poinsettia displays, lights, everywhere I look [in my office] complex," says Bob Sipsky, of Stuart, Fla. "Christmas gorge-as-much-food-as-you-can eat-a-ramas every day for two weeks. Enough already."

Sipsky is a Bible believer not affiliated with any organized church. He celebrated Christmas for 35 years before abandoning it, now thinking it an insult to God.

"There are clearly explained festivals that God tells us to observe, which teach how to have peace on earth, and what the true Savior requires of us," Sipsky says, "yet mankind ignores these, and prefers to make up his own festivals and traditions. Christmas is based in deception: its origins; lying to small children about Santa Claus; talking about having peace on earth while ignoring God's instructions on how to achieve it; saying it is biblical, while 99 percent of it is all about commerce and other selfish objectives. Myths and traditions do not please the God of the Bible, a right way of living does. Deception is at the top of the list of what He hates."

That anti-Christmas view is echoed by Tom Moniz of Hobe Sound, Fla. "Being a God-fearing man, I cannot honor a lie, nor do I think adopting a pagan holiday and calling it his birthday does any honor to him."

"Most of these people are killjoys," says Rev. Falwell regarding those who attack the celebration of Christmas. "Most of these tightwads just don't want to [spend] cash. ... I don't take my children or grandchildren near them."

To many Christians, Christmastime is among the most sacred times of the year, and they look to keep it that way.

"It's the reason for being a Christian, because we believe Jesus is God," says Louis Giovino, director of communications for the New York-based Catholic League, the nation's largest Catholic civil-rights organization.

With recent controversies surrounding Christmas in the public arena, the league has issued a list of guidelines to help people understand what kind of religious expression is permissible at this time of year.

Giovino admits the observance has picked up some pagan customs over the years, but says they've been "baptized" by the Church. He notes by the time of Dickens in England, the holiday took on a more raucous tone, with drinking parties and violence, and says the Protestant legislation to outlaw Christmas was in direct response to the riotous revelry.

"The Puritans weren't into celebrating anything," he said.

Giovino stresses the important part of Christmas is the larger picture of the Christian message, the belief that "the Word became flesh."

"It's not like saying 'Happy birthday, Jesus!'" he exclaimed. "I think personally Christmas is ridiculous without Christ. Otherwise, we might as well celebrate the winter solstice as pagans."

The baby with the bathwater?

With the extremes on Christmas observance ranging from total holiday indulgence to complete abstention, there are plenty of people who seek middle ground. Pastor Richard Bucher of the Trinity Lutheran Church in Clinton, Mass., is one of them, asserting celebrating Christmas is not pagan.

"It's laudable that certain Christians care so much about pleasing God to ask the question if it's right," Bucher told WorldNetDaily, "but a lot of arguments they're making are just not sound. They end up placing guilt on Christians celebrating Christmas and do a real disservice."

On his church website, Bucher addresses examples such as the tree decorated with silver and gold in Jeremiah's 10th chapter, and explains upon close examination, it does not refer to anything like a Christmas tree.

"The very next verse, 10:5, goes on to say, 'Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.' This passage and the passages that follow make it crystal clear that the 'decorated tree' that Jeremiah was talking about in 10:3-4, was a tree that was cut down and made into an idol, a very common custom in the ancient world."

"Just because heathens took something God has created for good," he asks, "does that mean such things are off limits [to Christians] permanently?"

He says many have invented sin where God has not said that something is sinful, and adds the issue boils down to what exactly is meant by "Christmas."

"Is it thanking God for the birth of the Savior, or everything that people do associated with it? People just lump everything together."

Despite all the conflict, some believers have little problem with the controversies over Christmas; in fact, they rejoice in them.

"Those who would attempt to take Christ out of Christmas are fighting a losing battle," says Joan Driscoll of Ft. Lauderdale, Fla. "The harder they try, the stronger the holy message and meaning of Jesus' birth becomes. The heavenly voices of the angels singing 'Alleluia' will easily drown out the guttural tones of the dissenters."

If you'd like to sound off on this issue, please take part in the WorldNetDaily poll.

Related stories:

School bans saying 'Christmas'

Ban on Christmas leads to court fight

Sunday, holy Sunday?

Pledge battle all about dad?

Related columns:

When Christmas becomes illegal

Jesus, the Lamb of God

Related special offers:

THE NEW PAGANISM: How Christianity is being replaced by 'green' religion, goddess worship, globalism

Abandonment Theology: The Clergy and the Decline of American Christianity

Biblical Roots of Man charts: Must-have for the serious Bible student

15 posted on 12/14/2002 6:22:43 AM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: Salvation
Good idea!!!
16 posted on 12/14/2002 6:23:23 AM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: Salvation
Another bump to the top!
17 posted on 12/14/2002 6:46:54 AM PST by Salvation
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To: Salvation
This anti-Christian hate groups are getting more and more militant.
18 posted on 12/14/2002 7:41:36 AM PST by NewCenturions
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To: Salvation
This is exactly why there should be NO religious displays on government property. It just turns into a catfight about discrimination against one or the other.

Religion belongs on private property.
19 posted on 12/14/2002 7:52:58 AM PST by jlogajan
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Comment #20 Removed by Moderator

To: ProudAmerican1974
America is a Christian Country Buddy

Odd that the founders made sure to spell out in the First Amendment that the government would NOT establish a specific religion. In the twisted religionist mind this somehow translates to meaning government was SUPPOSED to establish the government as Christian. Weird.

21 posted on 12/14/2002 8:32:52 AM PST by jlogajan
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To: jlogajan
They made a Christian holiday into a government holiday so the Christian decorations are appropriate.
22 posted on 12/14/2002 9:02:32 AM PST by NewCenturions
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To: TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
Thanks for the heads up!
23 posted on 12/14/2002 9:06:00 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
And thank you for posting the WND article.

I think O'Reilly wrote about it, too. I will go looking.
24 posted on 12/14/2002 9:21:53 AM PST by Salvation
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To: Salvation
Thanks for the ping & Bttt
25 posted on 12/14/2002 10:26:08 AM PST by firewalk
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To: NewCenturions
They made a Christian holiday into a government holiday so the Christian decorations are appropriate.

Ha, did you just fall out of a time warp? Santa Claus has zilch to do with religion, just like Halloween trick or treating has zilch to do with All Saints Day. These have both been secularized -- stolen if you will -- just like the Christian church stole the winter solstice celebrations from the pagans before them.

It's an old advertizers maxim -- steal what works.

26 posted on 12/14/2002 10:34:38 AM PST by jlogajan
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To: jlogajan
It was written to not establish a specific 'demonination' of Christianity... NOT abolish Christianity.
27 posted on 12/14/2002 12:14:41 PM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: Salvation; *Christian persecutio
There is one it is called-Christian persecutio


28 posted on 12/14/2002 1:17:37 PM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
It was written to not establish a specific 'demonination' of Christianity... NOT abolish Christianity.

Religion hasn't been abolished in the USA -- it is right where it belongs -- on private property.

29 posted on 12/14/2002 1:28:41 PM PST by jlogajan
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To: TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
A law suit is horrible but it is nice to see the so called ULTRA RIGHT WINGERS defend themselves!!!

Fight fire with fire...

More power to 'em, I say.

30 posted on 12/14/2002 1:32:44 PM PST by maxwell
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To: maxwell
**More power to 'em, I say.**

Yes, it is good to see them fight back.
31 posted on 12/14/2002 2:43:00 PM PST by Salvation
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To: Salvation
It is about time.
32 posted on 12/14/2002 4:35:39 PM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: Salvation; All

NYC Schools Ban Nativity Scene

33 posted on 12/14/2002 4:37:50 PM PST by TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!
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To: jlogajan
Santa Claus has zilch to do with religion

What rubbish. Saint Nicholas of Myra (Santa Claus) has everything to do with faith in Jesus Christ.

34 posted on 12/16/2002 7:54:56 PM PST by Siobhan
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To: Siobhan
Saint Nicholas of Myra (Santa Claus) has everything to do with faith in Jesus Christ.

Not anymore.

35 posted on 12/16/2002 9:27:33 PM PST by jlogajan
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To: jlogajan; Salvation; Desdemona; sandyeggo; american colleen; Domestic Church; nickcarraway
Wrong. He always will, and he is one of our secret weapons in the culture. Children who want to know more about "Santa" have this "under the radar" little avenue of grace into their lives where they may learn about who St. Nicholas really was -- a believer in Jesus Christ and a bishop in Christ's Holy Church.
36 posted on 12/16/2002 10:10:54 PM PST by Siobhan
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To: Siobhan
he is one of our secret weapons in the culture.

Pagans can say the same thing about the rather straight forward ripoff of the winter solstice celebration as a Christian holiday.

37 posted on 12/16/2002 11:41:36 PM PST by jlogajan
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