Better bullets also will help, experts say

Stars and Stripes ^ | 20 December 2002 | Mark Oliva

[45Auto]

.308 or 5.56 - you make the call!

[VOA]

bumping for exposure (I'm just a civilian who has no experience on these life-and-death matters)

[SandfleaCSC]

Bring back the 30.06

[elmer fudd]

7.62 is too big. Cartridges and rifles are too heavy and recoil is unmanageable in full auto.

5.56 is too small and lacks stopping power, particularly at long distances.

What we need is an intermediate cartridge of around 6.5mm shooting about a 100 grain bullet at around 2800 fps.

[facedown]

One of the considerations in chosing the M16, .223, 5.56 over the older M14, .308, 7.62 was the weight of the rifle and the ammo. You can carry dang near twice the number of .223 rounds for the weight.

Secondly, I have always questioned the use of hardball ammo for combat. I know the rationale is that one bullet might go through several bad guys but I'd rather be sure to clobber the guy I'm aiming at (HP or SP).

[El Gato]

How about stopping adhering to the convention, which the US never signed anywatm that requires (more or less) FMJ rounds? The army legal eagles have decided that Match King type bullets are OK for snipers, maybe just issue something similar to the rest of the troops? Hunting type rounds would be much better against these current vermin, maybe mix them with FMJ/penetrator rounds in the same magazine, in case some of the bad guys do have body armor. Heck it would be worth the trouble just to here the liberals wailing and knashing their teeth!

[E. Pluribus Unum]

You can carry three times the amount of NATO 5.56 x 45 mm ammo versus 7.62 x 51 mm ammo. This is a factor that cannot be discounted, even if the lighter ammo is perceived to be less effective. The .223 is legal to use on deer, and it works adequately.

[IronJack]

“The military teaches people to shoot center mast,

I believe the term is "center MASS." That gaffe alone should discredit this reporter.

That aside, are we really going to have to fight this 5.56 vs. 7.62 battle again? It's been going on since the 1960's, and the M16 has proven itself on a variety of battlefields in a gamut of conditions. Is 5.56 the perfect military caliber? Probably not. But that's only because no such thing exists.

[elmer fudd]

.308 is manageable in a semi-auto with sufficient weight, but you can still fire more aimed shots more quickly from a 5.56. The .308 is more likely to stop what it hits though and will penetrate through cover that would stop a 5.56.

[rangerX]

I think the problem is the 62 grain penetrator round, versus the old 55 grain FMJ. The 62 grain round is a lot more stable than the 55 grain, which tended to yaw as soon as it hit flesh, and then cause massive trauma and/or exit wounds similar to what we saw with the beltway sniper recently. The 62 grain round, being designed to penetrate body armor, is stable, doesn't yaw or fragment, and just sails right on through with small entrance and exit wounds. The Rangers in Somalia complained about the same problem. Go back to the old 55 grain, 5.56mm round and the problem will diminish significantly.

[El Gato]

Isn't 5.56mm a NATO standard that was adopted by the US?

Yes and no, we actually drove the standard. The europeans had wanted something intermediate betwee their existing rounds, 30-06, .303, 8mm, etc, and the "varmint" catridge size. We insisted on the 7.62x51, which is also a NATO standard round. We were right, but then changed our mind.

I remember firing a bolt action 308 when I was a kid. More like a rocket launched than a rifle - my shoulder ached for hours. I can't imagine how you could handle an automatic version.BTW, a rocket launcher generally hardly recoils at all, especially condidering the size of the rockets they launch. It's a physics thing.

[cryptical]

I've heard rumors of a new 6.8mm round being developed as a retrofit for M4 rifles. Change out the barrel, everything else works fine. (The round is basically a necked-up 5.56
casing).

[El Gato]

The .223 is legal to use on deer

Depends on your location. Some states do not allow it for deer sized animals. How effective it is also depends on how big the deer are. Northern deer tend to be larger than southern ones, especially southwestern ones. And that's just the Whitetales, Mule deer are larger still.

[Migraine]

“You can penetrate the human body with little to no effect.”

Bet you could put your eye out with it.

[Gorzaloon]

Secondly, I have always questioned the use of hardball ammo for combat. I know the rationale is that one bullet might go through several bad guys but I'd rather be sure to clobber the guy I'm aiming at (HP or SP).

I thought the theory was to drill a neat hole, and tie up one or more buddies or corpsmen to rescue and care for the wounded.

A quick kill only removes one enemy.

On the matter of the FMJ 7.62, I had read that some Warsaw Pact ammo had a hollow in the lead filling, just at the point. Upon impact, the point would irregularly collapse, causing the bullet to tumble within the target..Yet it was still fully jacketed.

[Blood of Tyrants]

John Garand said something similar when he developed the M1. It was originally designed to utilize the (then) new .276 Petersen(sp?) cartridge.

Also, the average infantryman has no real need for full auto as accuracy goes waaaayy down and the number of wasted cartridges goes way up.

[Blood of Tyrants]

You were a kid. A .308 doesn't kick that bad.

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

. “Should be a 7.62 mm, so it will drop a man with one shot,” wrote one soldier

No, a 7.62 won't necessarily drop a man with one shot- or even several. I once worked with a soldier who took 3 rounds in the chest (miraculously going through-and-through without hitting a major artery of the heart), who went back to full duty as an Infantryman after his wounds healed.

It's not the size of the projectile (unless you are using something REALLY BIG, like a .50 cal), but the amount of force that is transferred to the target, as well as the shot placement. One of the worst wounds I ever saw was inflicted during a domestic dispute with a single .22 Short round- but perfect shot placement, as well as some ricocheting around in the chest, abdomen, and pelvis. The amount of damage was incredible (fatal, in fact).

By the way, the article goes on to say that soldiers are trained to shoot "Center of mast". That must be the Navy he's talking about- in the Army we shoot "Center of MASS"! LOL! (You have to suppose the intrepid reporter got this quote by telephone, and knowing nothing about the subject, wrote what he thought he heard...)

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

"hitting a major artery of the heart), "

Of course, I meant a "major artery OR the heart"! (The other way sounded kind of poetic, though, didn't it??)