Afghanistan vets criticize M-9 reliability, lethality

Stars and Stripes ^ | 20 December 2002 | Mark Oliva

[alpowolf]

Wasn't it said when they were still debating the 9mm becoming our primary sidearm, that it was because the women in our AF found the .45 ACP too large for their hands, too much recoil, etc? I seem to recall this.

I remember this being part of the debate. The argument doesn't make much sense to me because to me the difference in the recoil isn't all that great, and as someone else pointed out the ergonomics on the 1911A are quite good. Either pistol can be shot well if the person is trained correctly regardless of gender.

[IronJack]

I'll go to bat for the Baretta. I've got two of them, and they are both accurate and extremely reliable (this coming from a shooter who may not clean his guns as consistently as he should). I can't testify to the knockdown power of the 9mm, but common sense tells you it will pale beside the flying anvil that is a 230-grain .45 slug. Whether a 9 is appropriate for military use is debatable; even cops say it is a timid round, and many have opted for the .40 Smith.

I like it, and I like the Baretta that shoots it. But I don't know that I'd want to depend on it at bad-breath distance against a khat-inspired Yemeni.

[BenLurkin]

LOL!

btw, if we must field FMJ rounds how about flattening the nose a little on a .45 FMJ. (Nothwithstading what this article says, the .45 delivers almost twice as many foot pounds of energy as teh 9mm round.)

[xm177e2]

Even the Stars and Stripes puts dashes between the M and the number? What's this world coming to???

[xm177e2]

but the fact is the Beretta has done better in tests conducted by the U.S. military

The Glock would have been even better, but it wasn't entered:

the revolutionary Glock 17 pistol was withheld from the U.S. XM9 trials at the behest of its inventor, Gaston Glock, who would not accept U.S. government requirements to release the winning contender's production and patent rights to open bidding. The Glock pistol represents an entirely new era in small arms technology. Glock would have submitted his pistol only if guaranteed production rights. However, this stipulation does not conform to procedures practiced by the DOD.

The best choice would be a small-caliber handgun with 3-shot burst capability, like a Glock 18. If our soldiers aren't allowed to use hollowpoints (does anyone think the Taliban follows similar restrictions?), the 3-shot bursts should do enough damage to drop enemy targets. The low recoil of the Glock 18 in single-shot mode would allow soldiers to use it easily with one hand.

[xm177e2]

The energy delivered by a handgun really doesn't matter. The energy delivered by a .45 bullet is LESS than the energy of the recoil the shooter feels (because of the whole "equal and opposite reaction" thing and air friction). Handguns don't even have much stopping power at all: the way to stop someone is to shoot them in the heart, lungs, head, or neck. You can shoot someone a dozen times in the stomach, and they will still be able to shoot back if they have the will.

[yarddog]

I don't know where you got the idea that the .45acp has twice the energy as the 9mm.

They are very close. Some 9mm loads being hotter than some .45's and vice-versa.

[Frohickey]

It's funny how history repeats itself. Earlier this century our boys had trouble stopping Moro tribesmen in the Phillipines with their .38 Colts, which led the military to adopt a .45 later on, and now our boys are having trouble knocking down Muslims in Afghanistan with their 9mm's (also a .38, sort of). Assuming there is any truth to these stories, that is.

Ballistic Info on Cartridges

.38 Long Colt - Diameter 0.357 inch - typical Bullet Weight 150grains - Muzzle Velocity 770FPS - Muzzle Energy 195 ftlbs

Precision Ammunition Product List

9mm - Diameter 0.355 inch - typical Bullet Weight 115grains - Muzzle Velocity 1200FPS - Muzzle Energy 368 ftlbs

45CP - Diameter 0.452 inch - typical Bullet Weight 230grains - Muzzle Velocity 900FPS - Muzzle Energy 414 ftlbs

38 Long Colt is just underpowered... 9mm went the route of more velocity less mass... 45ACP went the route of more mass, less velocity.

I think the Army should go back to the 45Colt...in modern loadings... more mass AND more velocity.

[Frohickey]

The best choice would be a small-caliber handgun with 3-shot burst capability, like a Glock 18. If our soldiers aren't allowed to use hollowpoints (does anyone think the Taliban follows similar restrictions?), the 3-shot bursts should do enough damage to drop enemy targets. The low recoil of the Glock 18 in single-shot mode would allow soldiers to use it easily with one hand.

"The Court can not take judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches long has today any reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia; and therefore can not say that the Second Amendment guarantees to the citizen the right to keep and bear such a weapon." --- US vs Miller, SCOTUS 1939

Okay, so that means that the citizen has the right to keep and bear a Glock 18. :)

You know... I just noticed right now... that the words the SCOTUS used in the US vs Miller, that has always been cited by the Brady Bunch as applying only to the militia... "... therefore can not say that the Second Amendment guarantees TO THE CITIZENthe right to keep and bear such a weapon.

TO THE CITIZEN... hmm....

[ASOC]

Good point
The USAF gave me a .38, I bought (& got the COs permission) and carried my own .45. Thinking was - if I wuz gonna go and play with the Army, ought to have a piece that matched thier supply of ammo... Come to think of, still do : )

Worked with a guy who would not carry a GAU-5 (CAR15) or a sidearm. Carried an old M79 bloop gun and a vest full of flechette rounds - MUCH better than a shotgun and legal to boot.

Hoo-ah

[Buffalo Head]

"....Geneva Convention ...."

Wrong Convention pal. The Geneva Convention deals with handling of prisoners. It is The Hague Convention that established rules for 'civilized' warfare. No poison gas, no expanding bullets, etc. The United States did not sign The Hague Convention, but we have generally adopted the restrictions.

A soldier should think long and hard about using illegal ammunition in a conventional war. Having such on ones person is not a ticket for fun if captured by the enemy.

[Buffalo Head]

Only a fool takes a pistol to a rifle fight.

[Lael]

Wasn't it said when they were still debating the 9mm becoming our primary sidearm, that it was because the women in our AF found the .45 ACP too large for their hands, too much recoil, etc? I seem to recall this. I'd like to see some expert fact and opinion on this. Thanks. Doc

Actually, it had NOTHING to do with women...and 20 years ago, Heckler & Koch made a .45 ACP handgun that had practically NO felt recoil because of the delayed roller block action...similar to the MP5 Submachine Gun.

What actually happened is that NATO had rules about bringing all nation members to use common ammunition. You could keep the .45, even order new ones, but if you changed pistol types, you had to go to the 9MM Parabellum round.

The elitist Air Force carried the Smith and Wesson .38 Special, for pilot's survival weapons.

Sooooo...After a number of years of use, the Air Force Revolvers were warn out.

They could rebuild them, at a prohibitive cost, since it involves a LOT of hand fitting the parts. Master Gunsmith grade work. Their desire to go to an Automatic triggered the NATO rule...hence the 9 MM Parabellum. (To rebuild an Automatic requires the skill of an Apprentice, not a Master, gunsmith)

The M-16 in 5.56 MM was originally an Air Force survival rifle too. The Air Force didn't care, as the 38 Special is really 0.357 inches in diameter, whereas the 9 MM is really 0.355 inches, a miniscule difference.

The H&K pistol is no longer made. In the 45 cal version, the felt recoil was delivered over about a 3 times longer interval, making it VERY pleasant to shoot right out of the box.

In retrospect, I should have kept it

The reason for the success of the M-16 in Vietnam was the smaller stature of the enemy, and Communism in not as motivating as Jihadist Islam. But we already Knew that!

We switched to the 45 from the 38 due to our experience in the Pillippenes in hand to hand cobat with the Moslems on the Island of Mindinao prior to WWI

[Buffalo Head]

Kinetic Energe = 1/2 the mass of the bullet multiplied by its velocity squared. Go calculate.

[VOA]

...our chopper pilots quickly switched BACK to the bulky .45s after horror stories
about the snub-nosed .38s that could not put a Charlie down like a .45.

I'm only a gun enthusiast...but didn't Browning make the .45 ACP originally
because of complaints from US troops in the Phillipines that their .38s (revolver or
pistol, I can't recall) just couldn't put down the indigenous rebels they were trying
to subdue?

[Mr. Mojo]

women in our AF found the .45 ACP too large for their hands, too much recoil, etc?

The 1911 .45ACP fits womens' hands far better than the Beretta M9, which has both a thicker grip and a longer trigger reach. The .45 admittedly has more recoil, but I've know tiny little women who handle it effortlessly.

[Lael]

cobat = COMBAT!

[Mr. Mojo]

btw, if we must field FMJ rounds how about flattening the nose a little on a .45 FMJ

The Remington UMC Leadless 230 gr. FMJ round is flat-nosed. It's my range ammo of choice, and much more effective for personal defense than the traditional round-nosed design.

[Lael]

Kinetic Energe = 1/2 the mass of the bullet multiplied by its velocity squared. Go calculate

Kinetic Energy [in foot pounds]= Bullet Mass [in grains] X Velocity [feet per second] Squared, divided by 450,240.

[ASA Vet]

That would be the Thai "Queen's Cobra" Regiment.
This is their emblem, (from a belt buckle.)

The Thai had two regiments which rotated 6 month duty tours in Nam.
The other regiment was called the "Black Panthers."