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Christmas Before Christ? The Surprising Story
United Church of God ^ | 12/200 | Jerold Aust

Posted on 12/21/2002 11:21:49 AM PST by DouglasKC

Christmas Before Christ?
The Surprising Story


Most people know the Bible doesn't mention - much less sanctify - Christmas. Does it make any difference as long as it's intended to honor God and bring families together?

by Jerold Aust

S


everal months ago the popular American comedic actor Drew Carey was interviewed on an equally popular television talk show, The View. Mr. Carey surprised the audience when he addressed the value of telling children the truth about Santa Claus.

"I don't think you should tell kids that there is a Santa Claus," he said. "That's the first lie you tell your children." Instead, "tell kids that Santa's a character we made up to celebrate a time of the season." Otherwise "when kids get to be 5 ... they realize their parents have been lying to them their whole life."

Earlier in the year the Arts & Entertainment cable television channel aired a program about Christmas titled Christmas Unwrapped: The History of Christmas. The promo for this program read:

"People all over the world celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25th. But why is the Savior's nativity marked by gift- giving, and was He really born on that day? And just where did the Christmas tree come from?

"Take an enchanting journey through the history of the world's favorite holiday to learn the origins of some of the Western world's most enduring traditions. Trace the emergence of Christmas from pagan festivals like the Roman Saturnalia, which celebrated the winter solstice."

These two programs addressed the fact that Santa Claus is fictitious and that Christmas and its trappings emanate from pagan Roman festivals. By no means are these the only sources of information about the background of Santa Claus and Christmas.

Is there more to these ancient traditions and practices than meets the eye? And, more important, does it make any difference whether we continue them?

Celebration of the sun god

It may sound odd that any religious celebration with Christ's name attached to it could predate Christianity. Yet the holiday we know as Christmas long predates Jesus Christ. Elements of the celebration can be traced to ancient Egypt, Babylon and Rome. This fact doesn't cast aspersions on Jesus; it does, however, call into question the understanding and wisdom of those who, over the millennia, have insisted on perpetuating an ancient pagan festival that has devolved through much of the world as Christmas.

Members of the early Church would have been astonished to think that the customs and practices we associate with Christmas would be incorporated into a celebration of Christ's birth. Not until several centuries had passed would Christ's name be attached to this popular Roman holiday.

As Alexander Hislop explains in his book The Two Babylons: "It is admitted by the most learned and candid writers of all parties that the day of our Lord's birth cannot be determined, and that within the Christian Church no such festival as Christmas was ever heard of till the third century, and that not till the fourth century was far advanced did it gain much observance" (1959, pp. 92-93).

As for how Dec. 25 became the date for Christmas day, virtually any book on the history of Christmas will explain that this day was celebrated in the Roman Empire as the birthday of the sun god. Explaining how Dec. 25 came to be selected as the supposed birthday of Jesus, the book 4000 Years of Christmas says: "For that day was sacred, not only to the pagan Romans but to a religion from Persia which, in those days, was one of Christianity's strongest rivals. This Persian religion was Mithraism, whose followers worshiped the sun, and celebrated its return to strength on that day" (Earl and Alice Count, 1997, p. 37).

Not only was Dec. 25 honored as the birthday of the sun, but a festival had long been observed among the heathen to celebrate the growing amount of daylight after the winter solstice, the shortest day of the year. The precursor of Christmas was in fact an idolatrous midwinter festival characterized by excess and debauchery that predated Christianity by many centuries.

Pre-Christian practices incorporated

This ancient festival went by different names in various cultures. In Rome it was called the Saturnalia, in honor of Saturn, the Roman god of agriculture. The observance was adopted by early Roman church leaders and given the name of Christ ("Christ mass," or Christmas) to conciliate the heathen and swell the number of the nominal adherents of Christianity.

The tendency on the part of third-century Catholic leadership was to meet paganism halfway-a practice made clear in a bitter lament by the Carthaginian philosopher Tertullian.

In 230 he wrote of the inconsistency of professing Christians. He contrasted their lax and political practices with the strict fidelity of the pagans to their own beliefs: "By us who are strangers to Sabbaths, and new moons, and festivals [the biblical festivals spelled out in Leviticus 23], once acceptable to God, the Saturnalia, the feasts of January, the Brumalia, and Matronalia, are now frequented; gifts are carried to and fro, new year's day presents are made with din, and sports and banquets are celebrated with uproar; oh, how much more faithful are the heathen to their religion, who take special care to adopt no solemnity from the Christians" (Hislop, p. 93).

Failing to make much headway in converting the pagans, the religious leaders of the Roman church began compromising by dressing the heathen customs in Christian-looking garb. But, rather than converting them to the church's beliefs, the church became largely converted to non-Christian customs in its own religious practices.

Although at first the early Catholic Church censured this celebration, "the festival was far too strongly entrenched in popular favor to be abolished, and the Church finally granted the necessary recognition, believing that if Christmas could not be suppressed, it should be preserved in honor of the Christian God. Once given a Christian basis the festival became fully established in Europe with many of its pagan elements undisturbed" (Man, Myth & Magic: The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Mythology, Religion, and the Unknown, Richard Cavendish, editor, 1983, Vol. 2, p. 480, "Christmas").

Celebration wins out over Scripture

Some resisted such spiritually poisonous compromises. "Upright men strove to stem the tide, but in spite of all their efforts, the apostasy went on, till the Church, with the exception of a small remnant, was submerged under Pagan superstition. That Christmas was originally a Pagan festival is beyond all doubt. The time of the year, and the ceremonies with which it is still celebrated, prove its origin" (Hislop, p. 93).

The aforementioned Tertullian, for one, disassociated himself from the Roman church in an attempt to draw closer to the teachings of the Bible.

He wasn't alone in his disagreement with such trends. "As late as 245 Origen, in his eighth homily on Leviticus, repudiates as sinful the very idea of keeping the birthday of Christ as if he were a king Pharaoh" (The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th edition, Vol. 6, p. 293, "Christmas").

Christmas was not made a Roman holiday until 534 (ibid.). It took 300 years for the new name and symbols of Christmas to replace the old names and meaning of the midwinter festival, a pagan celebration that reaches back so many centuries.

No biblical support for Santa Claus

How did Santa Claus enter the picture? Why is this mythical figure so closely aligned with the Christmas holiday? Here, too, many books are available to shed light on the origins of this popular character.

"Santa Claus" is an American corruption of the Dutch form "San Nicolaas," a figure brought to America by the early Dutch colonists (The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th edition, Vol. 19, p. 649, "Nicholas, St."). This name, in turn, stems from St. Nicholas, bishop of the city of Myra in southern Asia Minor, a Catholic saint honored by the Greeks and the Latins on Dec. 6.

He was bishop of Myra in the time of the Roman emperor Diocletian, was persecuted, tortured for the Catholic faith and kept in prison until the more tolerant reign of Constantine (ibid.). Various stories claim a link from Christmas to St. Nicholas, all of them having to do with gift-giving on the eve of St. Nicholas, subsequently transferred to Christmas Day (ibid.).

How, we might ask, did a bishop from the sunny Mediterranean coast of Turkey come to be associated with a red-suited man who lives at the north pole and rides in a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer?

Knowing what we have already learned about the ancient pre-Christian origins of Christmas, we shouldn't be surprised to learn that Santa Claus, too, is nothing but a figure recycled from ancient pagan beliefs.

The trappings associated with Santa Claus-his fur-trimmed wardrobe, sleigh and reindeer-reveal his origin from the cold climates of the far North. Some sources trace him to the ancient Northern European gods Woden and Thor, from which the days of the week Wednesday (Woden's day) and Thursday (Thor's day) get their designations (Earl and Alice Count, pp. 56-64). Others trace him even farther back in time to the Roman god Saturn and the Greek god Silenus (William Walsh, The Story of Santa Klaus, pp. 70-71).

Was Jesus born in December?

Most Bible scholars who have written on the subject of Jesus' birth conclude that, based on evidence in the Bible itself, there is no possible way Christ could have been born anywhere near Dec. 25.

Again we turn to Alexander Hislop: "There is not a word in the Scriptures about the precise day of [Jesus'] birth, or the time of the year when He was born. What is recorded there, implies that at what time soever His birth took place, it could not have been on the 25th of December. At the time that the angel announced His birth to the shepherds of Bethlehem, they were feeding their flocks by night in the open fields ... The climate of Palestine ... from December to February, is very piercing, and it was not the custom for the shepherds of Judea to watch their flocks in the open fields later than about the end of October" (Hislop, p. 91, emphasis in original).

He goes on to explain that the autumn rains beginning in September or October in Judea would mean that the events surrounding Christ's birth recorded in the Scriptures could not have taken place later than mid-October, so Jesus' birth likely took place earlier in the fall (Hislop, p. 92).

Further evidence supporting Jesus' birth in the autumn is that the Romans were intelligent enough not to set the time for taxation and travel in the dead of winter, but during more-favorable conditions. Since Joseph's lineage was from Bethlehem, and since he had to travel from Nazareth in Galilee to Bethlehem, and since his expectant wife Mary traveled with him, it would have been nearly impossible for Joseph and Mary to make the trip in the winter. As recorded by Luke, Mary delivered Jesus in Bethlehem during the time of census and taxation-which no rational official would have scheduled for December.

What difference does it make?

The Bible gives us no reason-and certainly no instruction-to support the myths and fables of Christmas and Santa Claus. They are tied to the ways of this world and contrary to the ways of Christ and His holy truth. "Do not learn the way of the Gentiles," God tells us (Jeremiah 10:2).

Professing Christians should examine the background of the Christmas holiday symbols and stop telling their children that Santa Claus and his elves, reindeer and Christmas gift-giving are connected with Jesus Christ. Emphatically they are not! God hates lying. "These six things the LORD hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren" (Proverbs 6:16-19).

Recommended Reading

Does it matter to God which days and customs we celebrate to honor Him? Why do so many of our holidays have strange customs sanctioned nowhere in the Bible?

Many people are shocked to discover the origins of most popular holidays. They're also surprised to find that the feast days God commands in the Bible-the same days kept by Jesus Christ and the apostles-are almost universally ignored.

Be sure to request your free copies of the booklets Holidays or Holy Days: Does It Matter Which Days We Keep? and God's Holy Day Plan: The Promise of Hope for All Mankind.

Christ reveals that Satan the devil is the father of lies (John 8:44). Parents should tell their children the truth about God and this world's contrary and confusing ways. If we don't, we only perpetuate the notion that it is acceptable for parents to lie to their children.

Can a professing Christian promote a pagan holiday and its symbols as something that God or Christ has approved? Let's see what God thinks about people using customs and practices rooted in false religion to worship Him and His Son. We find His views clearly expressed in both the Old and New Testament.

God specifically commands His people not to do what early church leaders did when they incorporated idolatrous practices and relabeled them Christian. Before they entered the Promised Land, God gave the Israelites a stern warning: "Take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them [the inhabitants of the land],... and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.'

"You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods ... Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it" (Deuteronomy 12:30-32, emphasis added throughout).

Many centuries later the apostle Paul traveled to and raised up churches in many gentile cities. To the members of the Church of God in Corinth, a city steeped in idolatry, Paul wrote: "... What fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God ... Therefore 'Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you.' ... Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God"
(2 Corinthians 6:14-17; 7:1).

Instead of allowing members to rename and celebrate customs associated with false gods, Paul's instructions were clear: They were to have nothing to do with them. He similarly told Athenians who were steeped in idolatry, "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30).

God alone has the right to decide the special days on which we should worship Him. Jesus Christ plainly tells us that "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24). We cannot honor God in truth with false practices adopted from the worship of nonexistent gods.

Jesus said: "This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:6-7). With God no substitutes are acceptable. It makes no difference that Christians mean well when they observe Christmas. God is not amused or pleased.

The knowledge of how to honor Almighty God, who made us, preserves us and gives us eternal life, has been made available to you. Will you honor God or follow the traditions of mankind?



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: axegrinders; christ; christmas; kooks; scroogewasright
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A little bit of "did ya know"....
1 posted on 12/21/2002 11:21:49 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
There's always someone who wants to come along and take all the joy out of things. They attack Halloween and Christmas because they don't like it when people enjoy life.
2 posted on 12/21/2002 11:29:36 AM PST by Junior
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To: Junior
There's always someone who wants to come along and take all the joy out of things.

Why, exactly, does reading about how the celebration WASN'T invented by Christ or Christians "take all the joy out of things" for you ???

3 posted on 12/21/2002 11:40:09 AM PST by Izzy Dunne
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To: DouglasKC
Bump for a good post
4 posted on 12/21/2002 11:45:01 AM PST by Jael
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To: Izzy Dunne
Because it's always the first step. Next'll come the claim that those who celebrate Christmas are pagans. You've seen the influence these folks have had on Halloween. When I was a kid growing up in the South, we went trick-or-treating every year, as did all the other kids in the neighborhood. Now the fundamentalist preachers rale against Halloween as a "pagan holiday" and hardly anyone around here trick-or-treats any more; a number of parents of my acquaintance refuse to allow their kids to dress up "in honor of a pagan diety."

Christmas is the one season of the year I feel like a kid again. I love the lights and the music and the feeling of peace and joy which permeate the world. With the publication of this article I can see the handwriting on the wall for the season. There are folks out there who will not be happy until everyone is as miserable as they are.

5 posted on 12/21/2002 11:48:09 AM PST by Junior
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To: Junior
And Jesus hates your SUV
6 posted on 12/21/2002 11:52:44 AM PST by AppyPappy
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To: Junior
There's always someone who wants to come along and take all the joy out of things.

Osama, dat you?

7 posted on 12/21/2002 11:55:55 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: Junior
I tend to agree with you, Junior. At first, the left would try go tear down traditions (especially if they had any religious/spiritual connection) and then some people from the "religious" right got started, but from a different perspective.

I'm a Christian who grew up celebrating both Halloween and Christmas. Still do. I love the Christmas music, the decorations and the stories of Santa Claus, all the while celebrating the religious aspect as well. Just because the holiday has a religious meaning to me doesn't mean that I can't enjoy some of the other elements I just described. This goes for Halloween as well. I used to dress up and go trick-or-treating and still went to church on Sundays. The idea that celebrating Halloween makes one a pagan is just ridiculous.

I thought it was the left that was excessive in their political correctness. They act as if wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" is the equivalent of a racial slur. Now we have to worry about those on the "religious" right (notice my quotation marks).

So in summary, I'm a Christian that celebrates all the aspects of Christmas and has fun doing it. Just like millions of other Christians. I'm not concerned what the left or far right says. I enjoy it. At least until someone bans it.

8 posted on 12/21/2002 12:08:08 PM PST by jwillis1010
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To: Izzy Dunne
"There are many things from which I might have derived good, by which I have not profited, I dare say," returned the nephew. "Christmas among the rest. But I am sure I have always thought of Christmas time, when it has come round -- apart from the veneration due to its sacred name and origin, if anything belonging to it can be apart from that -- as a good time: a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time: the only time I know of, in the long calendar of the year, when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys. And therefore, uncle, though it has never put a scrap of gold or silver in my pocket, I believe that it has done me good, and will do me good; and I say, God bless it!"--from Dickens
9 posted on 12/21/2002 12:12:54 PM PST by onedoug
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To: Junior
There's always someone who wants to come along and take all the joy out of things.

Some of us would say that real joy doesn't derive from "things" but rather from God. They attack Halloween and Christmas because they don't like it when people enjoy life.

I don't think it's an attack. It's factual information about Christmas. Do with it what you will.

10 posted on 12/21/2002 12:14:18 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: onedoug
Perfect!!
11 posted on 12/21/2002 12:16:00 PM PST by jwillis1010
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To: Junior
Christmas is what it is. It definitely has pagan origins and this info is not new - it's been out there for years. But I doubt Christmas will ever take on the negative connotations that Halloween has, simply because Halloween has some truly evil aspects involving pretty icky stuff, much of which has carried over into celebrations today. Think about it - I suppose it's fun to be scared sometimes, but witches and goblins and skeletons etc are not really pleasant little kid fare.

If Christians feel convicted to refrain from traditional Christmas celebration (and I know some that do, in fact I went through some very serious soul-searching myself), that's their prerogative. In our family, we have a tree and plenty of gifts (with the emphasis on the GIVING and those who have little, such as our Colombian child we sponsor), but our focus is to continually remind our daughter (5) and son (almost 2) that Jesus gave us the best gift of all. We have chosen to tell her that Santa is just a story that came out of a really nice man named St Nicholas who lived a long time ago, but Jesus' birth really happened. She's fine with that, gets to enjoy the magic of Christmas while celebrating Jesus' birth.

Anyway, celebrate however you see fit. I love the lights and the music and good will too. No one will ruin it for you, I promise. :)
12 posted on 12/21/2002 12:23:23 PM PST by agrace
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To: agrace
bump
13 posted on 12/21/2002 1:25:06 PM PST by jwillis1010
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To: DouglasKC
In the beginning was the Word. There is no such thing as "pre-Christian." Throughout the ages, people have had a glimps of the truth, not just the Jews. Read C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien.
14 posted on 12/21/2002 1:31:11 PM PST by Mercat
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To: DouglasKC; ALS; Prodigal Daughter; Thinkin' Gal; babylonian; shaggy eel; Crazymonarch; ...
Thanks for posting this.  You are correct however this article will only witness to a narrow group.  The broadly accepted idea in what calls itself "The Church" is that they can do anything they want.  Lasciviousness is centered in Secular Humanism and man-centered traditions of men and relies on Majority Rules rather than lining up with the Word which clearly indicates how and when He wants to be worshiped.  A study of "Jewish feasts" would benefit.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 "Quake Kills 23 in Central Italy" ~ The Halloween earthquake in Italy should have been a warning.  G~d really does have an opinion and is bringing judgment to those who deny Him.  More here:  42

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

 Would Your Church Allow You To Be Like Jesus?
 A Christmas Birthday Party
 Too Long in the Sun

It is a divisive issue but that is indeed what the L~rd is about.  Sheep and goats.

Mt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Lu 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

15 posted on 12/21/2002 2:17:06 PM PST by 2sheep
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To: 2sheep
Considering that Christianity emerged only 1700 or 2000 years ago, when could it have scheduled its major celebrations --

and NOT been on or about the time of year when one pagan deity or another, among the thousands of them, had not had his or her festival?

This is a canard, tired of hearing about it.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL, Merry Christmas, and I predict that will mean something after Trent Lott and Kyoto and Harare and all the rest of today's ills are dusty ancient history.

16 posted on 12/21/2002 2:24:50 PM PST by crystalk
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To: DouglasKC
From Bill Keller, www.Liveprayer.com

Why Christians should NOT celebrate Christmas. Every year at this time, I get inundated with emails that read like 40 page doctrinal dissertations on why a Christian should NOT celebrate Christmas. They make very good arguments about the pagan celebrations at this time of year, the evils of the Christmas tree, lying to children about Santa Claus, how Jesus was not born on December 25th, and many other reasons why a Christian should not celebrate Christmas. To those people I have only one thing to say....BAH HUMBUG!

Listen, everyone understands that Jesus was not born on December 25th, but according to most scholars, sometime in the spring. I have yet to meet anyone that worshipped their Christmas tree, only decorated it. If you are old enough to be able to read this, you are old enough to know that there is no Santa Claus. And yes, there are many pagan celebrations that occur at this time of the year, and the Bible does not have the word Christmas in it. However, there is only ONE REASON that we celebrate Christmas, and that is to celebrate the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Christians SHOULD celebrate the birth of Jesus! It is right, and good that we take time each year to remember that blessed event. It was foretold by the prophets of old. It is a well documented historical event chronicled in the Gospels and supported by the historians of that day. After His death and resurrection, it is easily the GREATEST EVENT IN HUMAN HISTORY! Think about it. God Himself, the Creator of the heavens and earth, came to this earth as a mere man to live with His creation. He came as a mere baby, born of a virgin in a humble manger in an obscure little town. He would grow up to die on a cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. Three days after His death, God would raise Him from the dead as a sign to this lost and unbelieving world that He was exactly who He claimed to be...the SON OF GOD! His life would literally transform the lives of every man, woman, and child for the rest of human history. THAT is why we celebrate Christmas. THAT is why as Christians, we SHOULD celebrate Christmas.

I love you and care about you so much. I realize that people who say not to celebrate Christmas mean well, and are trying to live their lives in a way pleasing and acceptable to God. I know they are well intentioned, and many of the things they point out about Christmas are true. But they have missed the point of Christmas. Christmas is about only one thing, celebrating the birth of Jesus. It is one of those times of the year that we gather with family and friends, and share our faith in Christ. Christmas is also VERY BIBLICAL. Luke chapter 2 gives us the account of His birth. That was the very first Christmas. Of course Mary was there, as was Joseph. We also read about several shepherds that God spoke to who were part of that first Christmas. Now, some 2,000 years later, we will set aside time in the coming days to do what they did at that first Christmas....celebrate the birth Jesus!

I pray today that you will never forget what Christmas is really about, and why we celebrate this holiday. Of course, anything that the world gets involved with becomes perverted. The world has taken this sacred time of the year and turned it into a time of commerce. We must never allow ourselves to get so caught up in the parties, the gifts, the food, and all of the other things associated with the Christmas season, to forget what it is about....a time to celebrate the birth of Jesus. THAT is what Christmas is really about, and THAT is why as Christians, we SHOULD celebrate this wonderful event!!!

In his love and service,
Your friend and brother in Christ,
Bill Keller

17 posted on 12/21/2002 2:27:33 PM PST by Faith
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To: DouglasKC
Oh, come on.

Apparently legalists never read Romans 14:4-5

4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

A lot of fundamentalists have a huge problem with this passage. Oh, they celebrate Easter -- that's from the pagan feast of Istar and Tammuz, or something like that. Christmas is from the Saturnalia. Big freakin' deal. The fact of the matter is that they are still overtly Christian.

If Christians want to use the traditional December 25th holiday to celebrate the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, then not only are they well within their Christian liberty in doing so, but they glorify God. And none of us have the right to criticize them for doing so. That is a matter between them and the Almighty alone.

18 posted on 12/21/2002 2:34:41 PM PST by jude24
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To: jude24
Amen-to-that-BUMP.
19 posted on 12/21/2002 2:40:29 PM PST by WorldWatcher1
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To: jude24
bump
20 posted on 12/21/2002 2:47:55 PM PST by jwillis1010
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