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To: Lil'freeper
Good for them! Great historical tidbits- thanks.

So, you see nothing wrong with a government-established/endorsed/subsidized organization that has a religious requirement for boys to enter and then, by using a government charter, doesn't allow the boys denied admission to establish their own group?

45 posted on 01/03/2003 11:38:45 AM PST by Tired of Taxes
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To: Tired of Taxes
The First Amendment only applies to Congress, and it isn't like Congress gave the BSA some kind of official Charter, is it?
59 posted on 01/03/2003 12:29:50 PM PST by Dimensio
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To: Tired of Taxes
Can you tell I've been reading about the BSA lately?

Aaah, you're one of those! I'll respond and then let it be. Your style of arguing indicates that your mind is made up. Please ignore the following waste of bandwidth.

BSA even lays claim to the name "scout"

The name is essentially a trademark and if the BSA have rights to it, great! Other organizations have secured rights to their own names. Competitors would do well to have a unique and memorable name that doesn't include "scout" if they don't want to be confused with the BSA. While I regret musing about "Gay Scouts", I still thank you for the information about the naming rights.

Then, the BSA receives donations from our military (courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer)

If you're referring to the combined federal campaign, donors have a choice of which organizations to donate to. If you're not referring to the cfc, provide your evidence. Not that it matters. The Scouts and the military have a long relationship. Jamborees and such are routinely held on military grounds because of the superior facilities. Troops traveling across country can stay in unused barracks at reduced cost. Units ocassionally sponsor Explorer posts and allow the kids to have some fun adventures (confidence courses, helicopter rides, etc.). Some of their best NCOs and officers will emerge from these experiences.

a few parks are maintained for the sole use of the BSA;

Which parks? Federal? State? County? Regardless, the actual "maintainence" is likely done by the scouts themselves. Service projects! Hardly a burden to the taxpayers considering the millions of acres of land that they are also excluded from isn't maintained at all. See this summer's fires.

and a scout automatically can qualify for a level two grades higher than anyone else upon admission into the military.

There is a slant in this and I question your source. Scouting builds the kind of character development, self-discipline and leadership employers, colleges, and *heaven forbid* even the military require. If perks are given to Eagle Scouts (a pay grade, or higher rank), fine by me. If an organization discriminates in favor of an Eagle Scout, great! They clearly know more about what goes into making an Eagle Scout than you.

It is a federally-protected government monopoly

*yawn* Congress giving the program two-thumbs up does not make it a government monopoly. The BSA could drop this charter that bugs you so much and still find a way to disappoint you. Congress gives medals to people, too. Does that mean that valour or service to country is a virtue monopolized by the government?

requires a religious test upon entrance.

Again, a slant. Name the religion you have to follow to be in the BSA. Can't be done, there is no preference. The only requirement is an avowed belief in a higher power- something that is allowed under that "free exercise" clause that people forget about. I've known Jewish Scouts, a Taoist scout, several Navajo Cub Scouts, and even a goddes-type pagan who lit candles and hummed. The word "God" in the requirement is generic to avoid the silliness of saying God/Gods/Goddess/Ganesha, et al. Swearing on the Bible is more of a "religious test" than anything the Scouts require.

Oh, since you've been reading so much... did you know that every NASA mission has had a Scout on it? I smell a rat.

67 posted on 01/03/2003 12:46:12 PM PST by Lil'freeper
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To: Tired of Taxes
doesn't allow the boys denied admission to establish their own group?

Look like they can, they just can't call themselves BOY SCOUTS because that name has a copyright, so to speak. It would be the same as if some company decided to take facial tissues and call them Cleanex. I'm sure the Kleenex company would sue for copyright infringement.

Why don't the atheist young men call themselves 'Guides'. That's what they were called in England before the idea was brought to the US. Seems like the Spiral Scouts are doing ok with their name. I had to laugh though, when I saw that many of their chapters meet in Unitarian Churches.

180 posted on 01/03/2003 7:53:00 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: Tired of Taxes; Lil'freeper
Good for them! Great historical tidbits- thanks.....Lil'freeper

So, you see nothing wrong with a government-established/endorsed/subsidized organization that has a religious requirement for boys to enter and then, by using a government charter, doesn't allow the boys denied admission to establish their own group?.....Tired of Taxes

Do you just make this up as you go along?

The Boy Scouts of America is not a "government-established" organization. It does have an Honorary Congressional Charter that gives it exclusive rights to the names "Boy Scouts of America", "Scout", "Boy Scouting", and "Scouting", as used within the United States. If it did not have an Honarary Congressional Charter, the BSA names and BSA logos would then be copyrighted by the BSA and be just as secure as the names and logos of "Coke", "Pepsi" and "Playboy".

The are over 80 organizations with Honorary Congressional Charters protecting their names. Two of these are the Jewish War Veterans, U.S.A. and the Daughters of the American Colonists, neither of which I qualify for membership in.

Your BSA argument as applied to Jewish War Veterans, U.S.A. is as follows:

If a Catholic war veteran is denied admission into the Jewish War Veterans, U.S.A, that represents a case of "a government-established/endorsed/subsidized organization that has a religious requirement for veterans to enter and then, by using a government charter, doesn't allow the veterans denied admission to establish their own group."

That argument is a lie.

There is absolutely nothing that prevents the Catholic veterans from establishing their own group that is limited to Catholics or open to all.

They can form their own group with their own admission criteria and call it "Catholic War Veterans" or "Catholic Vietnam War Veterans" or "Lapsed Catholic War Veterans" or "Gay War Veterans" or "Atheist War Veterans" and the apply for an Honorary Congressional Charter to protect their name in lieu of obtaining a copyright.

The only restriction is that the new group can't call itself "Jewish War Veterans". That name is already taken.

305 posted on 01/05/2003 2:52:08 PM PST by Polybius
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