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To: thatdewd
I didn't know that, I'll take your word for it and won't use it anymore.

A lie?

Carl Shurz, in an essay contained in The Writings of Abraham Lincoln: Volume One, writes that on "every available occasion, he pronounced himself in favor of the deportation and colonization of the blacks, of course with their consent. He repeatedly disavowed any wish on his part to have social and political equality established between whites and blacks. ... It is characteristic that he continued to adhere to the impracticable colonization plan even after the Emancipation Proclamation had already been issued."

Why would General Butler make that up?

You answered your own question - why would Butler make up such a quote? Lincoln had attempted in late 1864 to retain Commissioner of Emigration Rev. James Mitchell, receiving a response from Attorney-General Edward Bates on 30 Nov 1864, stating that Lincoln had "the same right to continue Mr. Mitchell that you had to appoint him originally." Rev. Mitchell also corresponded with Lincoln on 2 Sep 1864, noting that Secretary of Interior Usher seemed to be the problem, and the letter was endorsed by Lincoln.

Regarding Butler being "a known and notorious liar", Lincoln had previusly asked Butler to become his running mate in the 1864 elections, which Butler declined. This incident is also in Butler's Book, as is the colonization quote you cited. Some posters allege that Lincoln never met with Butler in 1865, but in January Lincoln issued a telegram summoning Butler to Washington - do you honestly think he failed to attend?

Lincoln's views on rewarding the blacks for their service in April 1865.  Full text - no exclusions, additions in brackets below are mine for clarification:

A conversation was held between us after the negotiations had failed at Hampton Roads [3 Feb 1865], and in the course of the conversation he [Lincoln] said to me:--
But what shall we do with the negroes after they are free? I can hardly believe that the South and North can live in peace, unless we can get rid of the negroes. Certainly they cannot if we don't get rid of the negroes whom we have armed and disciplined and who have fought with us, to the amount, I believe, of some one hundred and fifty thousand men. I believe that it would be better to export them all to some fertile country with a good climate, which they could have to themselves. You have been a stanch friend of the race from the time you first advised me to enlist them at New Orleans. You have had a good deal of experience in moving bodies of men by water,--your movement up the James was a magnificent one. Now, we shall have no use for our very large navy; what, then, are our difficulties in sending all the blacks away? If these black soldiers of ours go back to the South I am afraid that they will be but little better off with their masters than they were before, and yet they will be free men. I fear a race war, and it will be at least a guerilla war because we have taught these men how to fight. All the arms of the South are now in the hands of their troops, and when we capture them we of course will take their arms. There are plenty of men in the North who will furnish the negroes with arms if there is any oppression of them by their late masters. I wish you would carefully examine the question and give me your views upon it and go into the figures, as you did before in some degree, so as to show whether the negroes can be exported. I wish also you would give me any views that you have as to how to deal with the negro troops after the war. Some people think that we shall have trouble with our white troops after they are disbanded, but I don't anticipate anything of that sort, for all the intelligent men among them were good citizens or they would not have been good soldiers. But the question of the colored troops troubles me exceedingly. I wish you would do this as soon as you can, because I am to go down to City Point shortly and may meet negotiators for peace there, and I may want to talk this matter over with General Grant if he isn't too busy.
I said: I will go over this matter with all diligence and tell you my conclusions as soon as I can. The second day after that, I called early in the morning and said: Mr. President, I have gone very carefully over my calculations as to the power of the country to export the negroes of the South, and I assure you that using all your naval vessels and all the merchant marine fit to cross the seas with safety, it will be impossible for you to transport them to the nearest place that can be found fit for them,--and that is the Island of San Domingo,--half as fast as negro children will be born here. I am afraid you are right, General, was his answer; but have you thought what we shall do with the negro soldiers? I said:
I have formulated a scheme which I will suggest to you, Mr. President. We have now enlisted one hundred and fifty thousand negro troops, more or less, infantry, cavalry, and artillery. They were enlisted for three years or for the war. We did not commence enlisting them in any numbers until the latter part of 1863 and in 1864. I assume that they have a year at least on an average to serve, and some of them two to three years. We have arms, equipment, clothing, and military material and everything necessary for three hundred thousand troops for five years. Until the war is declared ended by official proclamation, which cannot be done for some very considerable time, they can be ordered to serve wherever the commander-in-chief may direct. Now I have had some experience in digging canals. The reason why my canal, which was well dug, did not succeed you know. My experience during the war has shown me that the army organization is one of the very best for digging. Indeed, many of the troops have spent a large portion of their time in digging in forts and intrenchments, and especially the negroes, for they were always put into the work when possible. The United States wants a ship canal across the Isthmus of Darien at some proper and convenient point. Now, I know of a concession made by the United States of Colombia of a strip thirty miles wide across the Isthmus for that purpose. I have the confidence of the negroes. If you will put me in command of them, I will take them down there and dig the canal. It will cost the United States nothing but their pay, the clothing that they wear will be otherwise eaten by the moths, the arms are of no worth, as we have so many of them in excess; the wagons and equipments will otherwise rust out. I should set one third of them to digging. I should set another third to building the proper buildings for shelter and the rest to planting the ground and raising food. They will hardly need supplies from the government beyond the first season, having vegetable supplies which they will raise and which will be best for their health. After we get ourselves established we will petition Congress under your recommendation to send down to us our wives and children. You need not send down anybody to guard us, because if fifty thousand well-equipped men cannot take care of ourselves against anybody who would attack us in that neighborhood, we are not fit to go there. We shall thus form a colony there which will protect the canal and the interests of the United States against the world, and at least we shall protect the country from the guerilla warfare of the negro troops until the danger from it is over.
He reflected a while, having given the matter his serious attention, and then spoke up, using his favorite phrase: There is meat in that, General Butler; there is meat in that. But how will it affect our foreign relations? I want you to go and talk it over with Mr. Seward and get his objections, if he has any, and see how you can answer them. There is no special hurry about that, however. I will think it over, but nothing had better be said upon it which will get outside. Well, then, Mr. President, I said, I will take time to elaborate my proposition carefully in writing before I present it to Mr. Seward. I bowed and retired, and that was the last interview I ever had with Abraham Lincoln. Some days afterwards [6 April 1865] I called at Mr. Seward's office, reaching it, as near as I can remember, about two o'clock in the afternoon. He promptly and graciously received me, and I stated to him that I came to see him at the request of the President, to place before him a plan that I had given to the President for disposing of the negro troops. Ah, he [Seward] said, General, I should be very glad to hear it. I know Mr. Lincoln's anxiety upon that question, for he has expressed it to me often, and I see no answer to his trouble.
Benjamnin F. Butler, Autobiography and Personal Reminiscences of Major-General Benj. F. Butler, Book Publishers, Boston, 1892, pp. 903-907

Lincoln was a politician, and repeatedly demonstrated it:

"In addition to all this we have shown that the Supreme Court---that tribunal which the Constitution has itself established to decide Constitutional questions---has solemnly decided that such a bank is constitutional."
Abraham Lincoln, "Speech on the Sub-Treasury", 26 Dec 1839, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Roy P. Basler ed., Vol. I, pp. 170-171.

"It affirms that, whatever the Supreme Court may decide as to the constitutional restriction on the power of a teritorial Legislature, in regard to slavery in the teritory, must be obeyed, and enforced by all the departments of the federal government."
Abraham Lincoln, "Fragment on the Dred Scott Case", Jan 1857, Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Roy P. Basler ed., Vol. II, p. 387.

Despite those statements, his position was far from adhering to that 7-2 decision, as his entire campaign was based upon preserving a lily-white West, free from blacks.
171 posted on 01/10/2003 10:11:07 AM PST by 4CJ
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Butler's account has no support in the record. Butler had reasons to suggest that he was "in" with Lincoln when he really was not. There is no proof that I have found that Butler even met with Lincoln after the beginning of 1865.

Here's a letter I just found:

John A. Andrew

Executive Mansion,

Washington,

February 18. 1864.

Yours of the 12th was received yesterday. If I were to judge from the letter, without any external knowledge, I should suppose that all the colored people South of Washington were struggling to get to Massachusetts; that Massachusetts was anxious to receive and retain the whole of them as permament citizens; and that the United States Government here was interposing and preventing this. But I suppose these are neither really the facts, nor meant to be asserted as true by you. Coming down to what I suppose to be the real facts, you are engaged in trying to raise colored troops for the U. S. and wish to take recruits from Virginia, through Washington, to Massachusetts for that object; and the loyal Governor of Virginia, also trying to raise troops for us, objects to you taking his material away; while we, having to care for all, and being responsible alike to all, have to do as much for him, as we would have to do for you, if he was, by our authority, taking men from Massachusetts to fill up Virginia regiments. No more than this has been intended by me; nor, as I think, by the Secretary of War. There may have been some abuses of this, as a rule, which, if known, should be prevented in future.

If, however, it be really true that Massachusetts wishes to afford a permanent home within her borders, for all, or even a large number of colored persons who will come to her, I shall be only too glad to know it. It would give relief in a very difficult point; and I would not for a moment hinder from going, any person who is free by the terms of the proclamation or any of the acts of Congress.

A. Lincoln.

You can see a Jpg of this document at the Library of Congress site.

Butler's account is not so well supported, to say the least.

Walt Walt

172 posted on 01/10/2003 10:25:24 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa (To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men)
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Why would General Butler make that up?

You answered your own question - why would Butler make up such a quote? Lincoln had attempted in late 1864 to retain Commissioner of Emigration Rev. James Mitchell...

You are the one making things up.

Lincoln didn't attempt anything of the sort based on the record so far shown.

Mitchell wrote to President Lincoln in October, 1864. He said he had not been paid in 4 months and that his files had been removed "long before".

Lincoln apparently inquired whether Mitchell could be kept on as commissioner of emigration or another position found for him -- the perfect example of 19th century political patronage.

You won't make the record show anything else -- and you cannot quote Lincoln as favoring colonization in 1863, 1864 or 1865.

Walt

173 posted on 01/10/2003 10:31:21 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa (To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men)
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Most interesting, and it certainly does provide validity for the Butler comment, which I confess I had pulled from a web page. After reading your post, and the selection from Butler's book, I must wonder if the charge against that quote and Butler's recounting is a recent invention (or excuse) of revisionist historians like Jaffa and many others. If there is any real proof the quote is indeed spurious, I would be curious to see it. I did not challenge the accusation because I was not that familiar with Butler's writings and also because there are so many statements by Lincoln supporting colonization.
190 posted on 01/10/2003 4:10:54 PM PST by thatdewd
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