Posted on 01/27/2003 12:21:52 PM PST by shortstop
What do you think of seatbelt laws?
Are they a good idea, or a bad idea?
You know the ones I mean. They vary from state to state, but they’re basically alike. If you’re driving a car, and you don’t have a seat belt on, you can get a ticket.
Sometimes it’s just the driver, sometimes it’s everyone in the car.
You’ve heard the sob stories. They roll out some state trooper, or a paramedic, and have him tell you a heartbreaking story about how many accident scenes he’s been to, and how it breaks his heart to see the carnage, and how seatbelts are the only hope we have.
And we see how much the state loves us, passing laws to protect us, shielding us from our own stupidity.
And we’re grateful.
We see seatbelt laws as a sign of social progress, as proof we’re an enlightened society.
But are we right?
Are seatbelt laws a good idea?
The answer to that, surprisingly, has nothing to do with seatbelts.
Because there’s no question about that. If you don’t use a seatbelt, you are an idiot. The benefit and protection that come from seatbelts cannot be denied.
Buckle your seatbelt. Don’t start the car until you have, and until everyone else has as well.
But that’s not the point.
Seatbelt laws aren’t about seatbelts, they are about freedom. And the role of government.
The question isn’t, “Should you wear a seatbelt?” It is, “Can government force you to wear a seatbelt?’
And, in spite of what the state legislatures have done, the answer to the second question, in America, is clear. The answer is, “No.”
We are a free people. Our government, as envisioned in our founding documents, is small and weak. It is not meant to make every decision or to legislate in every area. It is not meant to run our lives.
And yet we have come to let it.
Piece by piece, inch by inch, American freedom has dwindled and dwindled.
We are the victims of tyranny in the name of compassion.
Slavery in the guise of protection.
Each benefit of government has come at the cost of a corresponding liberty.
We are safer, but we are less free.
And we have been robbed.
Because freedom is better than safety. Liberty more important than life, and self-reliance of greater worth than governmental paternalism.
We are a nation built on the belief that all power resides with the people. Government can only exercise the power it has been granted by the people. In America, the power of government was meant to be severely limited. In America, the government is to be the servant, not the master. In America, people are believed to be the best off when they are the most free, when they run their own lives and make their own decisions.
But our government treats us like children. It takes our liberty from us with hardly a second thought. It expands its power over us without restraint. It mandates by force of law in matters that are and should be entirely personal and private.
Like seatbelts.
Sure, the government says it is acting for our best good.
But, shouldn’t we decide as free individuals what is in our best good?
Doesn’t government’s desire to protect us from harm unavoidably separate us from God-given liberty?
Of course it does.
And yet we have taken it like sheep.
We have thanked and re-elected those legislators who have orchestrated our bondage. We have cooperated with the squandering of our national birthright. What others fought and died for, we have flushed down the toilet. Because we haven’t been smart enough to remember what this country is all about.
Freedom.
And every policy or decision of the government must pass a simple test: Does it diminish our individual liberty?
If it does, it must not be allowed. If it does, it is inherently unconstitutional. If it does, it is dangerously and unacceptably un-American.
We must be able to distinguish between what counts and what does not. We must not be confused by irrelevance. Like those sob stories the cops and insurance people tell about seatbelts.
They are beside the point.
Seatbelt laws aren’t about seatbelts.
They are about law, and the proper role of law.
And whether or not you wear a seatbelt is your business. It is not the government’s business. You are free to be stupid, and the government has no right to outlaw stupidity.
Seatbelt laws are velvet chains. We’re told they are for our own good, but they are nothing more than government oppression. They are Big Brother pretending to be our mommy.
And one more example of how we have come to accept what earlier generations of Americans would have fought to the death to resist.
A. Billy chooses to pay a higher premium to his insurance company to be assigned to a higher risk insurance pool with other people who choose to not wear seatbelts. City's truck hits Billy, Billy is covered. Nobody's insurance rates go up except those in the high risk insurance pool, who chose to share additional risk.
B. Billy chooses to not pay the higher premium. Then, in violation of his insurance contract, Billy chooses to not wear his seatbelt. City's truck hits Billy. Billy can't pay his bills and is SOL. Bleeding heart liberals socialists are beside themselves with remorse at poor (and stupid) Billy's predicament, but can't bring themselves to donate their own money for his hospital stay. And one of them says, "Why, thereottabealaw..." The rest is history.
Needless to say, my Father was beyond any measure of strictness when it came to our family wearing seatbelts. That "loss of liberty" hasn't harmed me at all, and saved the military millions and millions of taxpayer dollars.
What loss of liberty? The only thing I saw in your story is personal responsibility.
That nails it. I've been shocked a few times by the total selfishness and hatred of government that gets espoused in the name of "liberty".
Without someone to defined and enforce the rules, nobody gets to play the game, including libertarians.
Voluntarily helping another, ie charity, is entirely compatible with libertarianism. If you ask us "Are you your brother's keeper?" We say, "Yes, when we want to be."
If we are denied that choice, the question is not "Are you your brother's keeper?". It becomes "Are you your brother's slave?"
Most "libertarians" are out for themselves, and themselves alone. Any restriction placed upon them is an affront to their "liberty", and any additional consequence placed upon them is "government interference".
The law is set in place, the consequence is known. This is unacceptable for those that disdain society and hold any government in contempt. It is stealing from them that which they do not own, and keeping from their grasp that which they have not earned.
I'm not surprised that you would. But did you notice I'm still paying for Joe's stupidity. I don't know whether I'm paying more or less, but I'm paying regardless of which laws or no laws.
Giddy Dolt freedom grabbing bump!!! What about airbags? Giddy pushed those through as well
There is an argument for this. If the public didn't provide a safety net that job would fall to churches and civic organizations. Churches would then be able to minister to the soul while they are providing whatever assistance is needed. Churches would rise back to prominance and only churches filled with people who really care, who are willing to give would flourish.
In that respect it could make for a much better society. Of course, I wonder how many of the libertarians would suddenly see value in the public dole if the alternative was turning to the church.
Grrrrr....
It gripes me to no end when people view the Constitutionand the Bill of Rights as the only rights citizens have and if it ain't there, then the right does not exist.
The Constitution, specifically the 9th amendment, contradicts this position.
In short, YOUR arguments run counter to the Constitution which limit goverment, not citizens' rights and liberties.
Grrrrr....
It gripes me to no end when people view the Constitutionand the Bill of Rights as the only rights citizens have and if it ain't there, then the right does not exist.
The Constitution, specifically the 9th amendment, contradicts this position.
In short, YOUR arguments run counter to the Constitution which limit goverment, not citizens' rights and liberties.
In New Jersey, the legislature orginally instituted a seatbelt law making the non-compliance a secondary violation, ie: if you were stopped for a moving violation and were not wearing your seatbelt you could also be ticketed for it. Of course, that was what we were told would be the extent of the law when it was originally proposed.
Lo and behold, a few years later and the seatbelt law is changed to a primary offense; you can now be stopped for not wearing your belt. So what are the unintended consequences? A couple of months ago, a State Trooper assigned to observe and ticket vehicles for seatbelt conpliance at a toolbooth on the NJ Turnpike was killed. As much as I feel sorry for the trooper and his family, it is a direct result of the State's need for income from seat belt violations that caused his death.
And in case you're wondering, I always wear mine.
I've frequented seat belt threads here for years, and I've never seen anyone take that position. But if you ever do find such an individual, send 'em my way and I'll set 'em strait.
Most "libertarians" are out for themselves, and themselves alone.
Some of us are charitable. Please see post #67.
Any restriction placed upon them is an affront to their "liberty", and any additional consequence placed upon them is "government interference".
That's not true. You are confusing us with anarchists. We don't have any problem with laws that are for the defense of rights.
It is stealing from them that which they do not own, and keeping from their grasp that which they have not earned
Seeing as how we're on a seatbelt thread, I couldn't think of a better way to describe those who would spend my liberty through seatbelt laws to pay for their own responsibility to either wear a seatbelt or purchase sufficient insurance.
Are they a good idea, or a bad idea?
You know the ones I mean. They vary from state to state, but they’re basically alike. If you’re outside, and you don’t have your clothes on, you can get a ticket.
You’ve heard the sob stories. They roll out some state trooper, or a paramedic, and have him tell you a heartbreaking story about how many crowd scenes he’s been to, and how it breaks his heart to see the shocked people, and how clothing laws are the only hope we have.
And we see how much the state loves us, passing laws to protect us, shielding us from our own stupidity.
And we’re grateful.
We see clothing requirement laws as a sign of social progress, as proof we’re an enlightened society.
But are we right?
Are anti-nudity laws a good idea?
The answer to that, surprisingly, has nothing to do with clothing.
Because there’s no question about that. If you don’t wear clothing outside, you are an idiot. The benefit and protection that come from wearing clothes cannot be denied.
Put on your clothes. Don’t go outside until you have, and until everyone else with you has as well.
But that’s not the point.
Anti-nudity laws aren’t about seatbelts, they are about freedom. And the role of government.
The question isn’t, “Should you wear clothes?” It is, “Can government force you to wear clothes?’
And, in spite of what the state legislatures have done, the answer to the second question, in America, is clear. The answer is, “No.”
We are a free people. Our government, as envisioned in our founding documents, is small and weak. It is not meant to make every decision or to legislate in every area. It is not meant to run our lives.
And yet we have come to let it.
Piece by piece, inch by inch, American freedom has dwindled and dwindled.
We are the victims of tyranny in the name of compassion.
Slavery in the guise of protection.
Each benefit of government has come at the cost of a corresponding liberty.
We are safer, but we are less free.
And we have been robbed.
Because freedom is better than safety. Liberty more important than life, and self-reliance of greater worth than governmental paternalism.
We are a nation built on the belief that all power resides with the people. Government can only exercise the power it has been granted by the people. In America, the power of government was meant to be severely limited. In America, the government is to be the servant, not the master. In America, people are believed to be the best off when they are the most free, when they run their own lives and make their own decisions.
But our government treats us like children. It takes our liberty from us with hardly a second thought. It expands its power over us without restraint. It mandates by force of law in matters that are and should be entirely personal and private.
Like wearing clothing.
Sure, the government says it is acting for our best good.
But, shouldn’t we decide as free individuals what is in our best good?
Doesn’t government’s desire to protect us from harm unavoidably separate us from God-given liberty?
Of course it does.
And yet we have taken it like sheep.
We have thanked and re-elected those legislators who have orchestrated our bondage. We have cooperated with the squandering of our national birthright. What others fought and died for, we have flushed down the toilet. Because we haven’t been smart enough to remember what this country is all about.
Freedom.
And every policy or decision of the government must pass a simple test: Does it diminish our individual liberty?
If it does, it must not be allowed. If it does, it is inherently unconstitutional. If it does, it is dangerously and unacceptably un-American.
We must be able to distinguish between what counts and what does not. We must not be confused by irrelevance. Like those sob stories the cops and insurance people tell about what happens when people go naked in public.
They are beside the point.
Anti-nudity laws aren’t about clothes.
They are about law, and the proper role of law.
And whether or not you wear clothing in public is your business. It is not the government’s business. You are free to be stupid, and the government has no right to outlaw stupidity.
Anti-nudity laws are velvet chains. We’re told they are for our own good, but they are nothing more than government oppression. They are Big Brother pretending to be our mommy.
And one more example of how we have come to accept what earlier generations of Americans would have fought to the death to resist.
Wow! You know what posters on FR do for charity, simply by reading their posts? That's a neat trick!
There is a price to pay for liberty or had you not heard? There's a whole generation that fought in Europe and the Pacific to quell totalitarianism and fascism and to preserve liberty. Or had you not heard?
Some of us advocate maximum rights and liberties for he maximum amount of people. And others, like you, don't.
The rantings of a liberal statist posing as a conservative.
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