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4 ways Columbia could have been saved. From NASA's Kennedy Space Center Home Page
NASA's Kennedy Space Center Home Page ^ | 04 February 03 | Mitchel Tighe

Posted on 02/04/2003 9:40:32 PM PST by Mitchel Tighe

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To: Mo1
Mo1,Sleep for me and see beautifull dreams,run through the meadows,write poetry ,kill bad people-sorry to add that ,oh what the heck just go to sleep.
121 posted on 02/04/2003 11:33:09 PM PST by fatima
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To: ALS
Cute home page,Is that your pic?read this thread from top to bottom and decide if it was worth loosing sleep over,Who is he and why was he banned?4th time I asked.
122 posted on 02/04/2003 11:48:21 PM PST by fatima
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To: El Gato
I had also recommended to jettison the gear, but another aspect of this would be that they would probably have to re-program the flight controls with the new mass, inertia tensor, and cg properties. Because of the cg change alone, the flight controls might not work properly.
123 posted on 02/05/2003 12:05:11 AM PST by mcsparkie
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To: Finny
Jettisoning it into space, if they had the ability, would just leave stuff drifting dangerously around in the same orbit.

It is standard procedure when separating from a booster or vehicle, to immediately start an orbit change process to get to a safe distance from the stuff you wish to leave behind. Otherwise it just smacks back into you one orbit later.

124 posted on 02/05/2003 12:11:53 AM PST by mcsparkie
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To: deport
Tomorrow I will look for the link, but I have a quote where the NASA guy is saying "We saw it at 80 seconds and we looked at it again 12 days later.

I'm sure he didn't mean they didn't look at it again until 12 days later, but I do take that to mean they saw it when it happened.

Everything is so monitored at these lift offs.
125 posted on 02/05/2003 12:31:32 AM PST by Jael
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To: Diddle E. Squat
Actually I'm a she. :-)
126 posted on 02/05/2003 12:40:12 AM PST by Jael
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To: Mitchel Tighe
Bump for a later read
127 posted on 02/05/2003 12:53:54 AM PST by Brad C.
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To: deport
You are assuming they knew they had a problem withing the 80 seconds.......

That's right. According to the reports I've read, Nasa did not notice the debris coming of the Shuttle and hitting the wing until HOURS after liftoff. The Shuttle was already in orbit when they reviewed a frame by frame recording of the liftoff and discovered the debris that came loose at the 80 second point after launch.

Prior to that review there was never any indication or reason to consider aborting the mission and by then it was too late.

128 posted on 02/05/2003 1:02:05 AM PST by slimer
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To: Mitchel Tighe
If all of you are ok with the "review next day, then that is ok by me. I hope that is the case and that the brave 7 did not die in vain.

Even if they had seen the insulation "hit" the instant it happened (and it happened so fast it was only visible on the slow-motion "instant replay" later -- someone watching that camera's monitor would have missed it "live"), there's another issue.

It just didn't look that bad at the time. It certainly wouldn't have been the sort of issue that screamed "MUST ABORT!". In fact, even the next day, after they had a discussion about the video, based on all they could see and all they knew from previous flights, they concluded that it didn't look all that serious. It's only in retrospect that it's suddenly looking Really Serious. (And even now it may possibly turn out to be a red herring that had nothing to do with the failure.)

And they *can't* and *shouldn't* abort any time something looks "odd" or a "possible" problem. The abort sequence itself is untested, risky, and may result in the loss of the craft. One thread quoted one of the astronauts saying that in the simulator they managed to land safely in less than half of the abort simulations -- the rest of the time they crashed for being unable to make it back to an appropriate runway.

Aborting is NOT something they should do lightly, or "just in case" something appears out of the ordinary. It should be saved for *undeniable* emergencies during launch, when the danger of proceeding truly outweighs the danger of aborting.

It's like leaping out of a commercial airliner with a parachute. It's not something you do except in the gravest of circumstances -- hearing or seeing "something funny" is not a good enough reason.

129 posted on 02/05/2003 1:21:33 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Mitchel Tighe
Hindsieght is always 20/20. But the people who have it never seem to be there when it happens
130 posted on 02/05/2003 1:50:19 AM PST by fella
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To: Jael
That's correct..... the event occurred at some 80 seconds into lift off, but the didn't see it until they were looking at it frame by frame the next day..... or that's what I've read.
131 posted on 02/05/2003 4:38:15 AM PST by deport
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To: ALS
1. I didn't post anyone's join date....
2. The 'wager' thing was a joke...
3. Mind your own business and don't tell ME what to do.

Thank you. Have a nice day.
132 posted on 02/05/2003 5:40:17 AM PST by Chad Fairbanks ('I WISH, at some point, that you would address those damned armadillos in your trousers." - JustShe)
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To: jlogajan
"Whack-a-mole team."

Bwahahahahahah!
133 posted on 02/05/2003 5:46:25 AM PST by Lee'sGhost (To BOLDLY go . . . (no whimpy libs allowed).)
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To: Mitchel Tighe
Another after-the-fact "expert".

A legend in his own mind...

134 posted on 02/05/2003 5:50:54 AM PST by Publius6961
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To: YaYa123
Gene Kranz, the flight director who orchestrated the rescue of astronauts aboard the crippled Apollo 13 in 1970, said that from what he knew about the suspected tile damage, there was probably nothing that could have been done to save the flight. "The options," he said in a telephone interview, "were just nonexistent."

Thanks for posting this. It's enough for me. Kranz is the go-to guy for working out of tough spots. If he says there wasn't much that could be done, that carries a lot of credibility.

I recall in the one book about Apollo 13 that the flight controllers have a process of working through their options. They try to keep as many options as they can and not make decisions that unnecessarily eliminate potentials, "closing out" options, I think they call it.

Fact is, once that bird was up there in orbit, the only options were to leave it there or try to bring it back. The laws of physics dictated that it couldn't get to the ISS (conservation of energy, not enough delta v, different orbital height and inclination), nor could the ISS send its Soyuz to the shuttle (it has retrorockets but little in the way or orbital maneuver capability). NASA could have rushed a shuttle to the pad to bring the Columbia crew back, bypassing normal preparation and safety procedures, and risked losing a second ship or both crews if something went wrong. The Russians sending up a Soyuz? Were they ready to do that? Could the Soyuz dock with the shuttle? How many could the Soyuz bring down? How much resupply could the Soyuz bring up? A Progress module to the shuttle? The Russians had one ready to send to the ISS, which needed it. Could the ISS get by without it? It can attach to the ISS but can it get to or dock with the shuttle?

Seems like the options were limited. Stay up in orbit and die up there, or take a chance on getting back down (assuming they knew there was serious damage). Not the kind of limited options flight controllers prefer.

135 posted on 02/05/2003 6:11:36 AM PST by chimera
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To: Brett66
Columbia was not configured with a docking collar. Getting the resupply into the shuttle would have been a major problem. Not that Yankee Ingenuity couldn't have come up with something, mind you!

If NASA would have suspected a problem with re-entry, I am certain that this option would have been attempted.

To be as technical as possible..."Shit Happens!"

136 posted on 02/05/2003 6:21:47 AM PST by Redleg Duke (Stir the pot...don't let anything settle to the bottom where the lawyers can feed off of it!)
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To: Ichneumon
Aborting is NOT something they should do lightly, or "just in case" something appears out of the ordinary. It should be saved for *undeniable* emergencies during launch, when the danger of proceeding truly outweighs the danger of aborting.

Not a lot of people realize this. The mindset seems to be, abort the launch and you'll be okay. That is far from true. It takes guts to call an abort because of the inherent risks associated with that. Controllers in fact are reluctant to call for it precisely because it places the systems in a state where there is little experience and even less margin for error.

There have been previous cases where abort is the seemingly obvious call yet isn't made, going back to the very early days of spaceflight. Some of you may be old enough to recall the aborted launch of Gemini 6. The Titan II engines quit after being ignited and the crew had a couple of seconds to decide whether to pull the ejection handle or not. They knew that blasting themselves out of that capsule while it was still on the ground was not exactly without risk, so they sat tight, and saved their ship and themselves.

The other was on the launch of Apollo 12 when the spacecraft lost electrical power as a result of a lightning strike during ascent. The flight director there was very close to calling a launch abort and getting that crew out of there, but the Saturn V was controlling normally even though the command module (separate systems) had lost power. He knew it was safer to get them up into a stable orbit and figure things out than to try an untested abort procedure and risk the loss of the crew during powered flight.

137 posted on 02/05/2003 6:23:20 AM PST by chimera
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To: chimera
Thank you so much for taking the time to read the TIMES article I posted at #100. and the original thread is here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/835422/posts?page=270#270

It's our best quality that we are skeptical. We live Reagan's "trust but verify" credo, but sometimes, it's a good thing to be able to balance that skepticism with a common sense, studied approach to the facts, before we dig our heels in to one side or the other of an issue.

138 posted on 02/05/2003 6:26:20 AM PST by YaYa123
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To: Finny
It would only really be something that was well-said IF in fact people WERE 'thinking outside the box', but what we have here is people thinking INSIDE the box, where there is no oxygen... It's the same people, thread after thread after thread accusing NASA of criminal negligence without ANY proof, while they IGNORE facts that are presented time and time again... Not satified to allow an investigation, they have their scapegoat and they are sticking to it - regardless of facts... and he defends them...

No, it wasn't well-said... it was an overreaction...
139 posted on 02/05/2003 6:28:23 AM PST by Chad Fairbanks ('I WISH, at some point, that you would address those damned armadillos in your trousers." - JustShe)
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To: Fred Mertz
I think they had an opportunity to investigate while the Columbia was in space, but they didn't.

Well, let's send you up strapped to the wing on the next shuttle launch so you can do some in-flight maintenance.

140 posted on 02/05/2003 6:45:32 AM PST by Kevin Curry
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