Gov. Granholm again publicly defies Church: advocates recognition for same sex couples

Detroit News via www.StopGranholm.com ^ | 2-16-2003 | staff

[Cultural Jihad]

There is no discrimination at all. Any adult is free to marry and have morally-licit heterosexual relations if they want to. The last time I checked, there are only two sexes, not four or six or eight.

[Siobhan]

I was talking earlier about how I have no intention to give up the Methodist church because it is officially "pro-choice." Most of that is because I think of it as "my" church and take great comfort in it. But another part of it is that the churches that are traditionally "pro-life" strike me as too mean-spirited and condemning towards those who disagree with them.

Yes, we condemn the murder of the unborn. Either one works for Life or one is helping out the other side.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

You wrote:
"Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ, which holds the fullness of His Gospel exactly as He gave it to the Apostles, and which thus offers the only absolutely certain path to salvation."

Okay, so, in other words, if you don't belong to the Catholic Church, you aren't saved? If so, I am entirely in the wrong argument here, because I think such beliefs are not in keeping with the word of God. Unless you can point me to the chapter and verse in the Bible that states that only the Catholic Church is the way to salvation. Because, I cannot find it.

[ItsJeff]

Yes, we condemn the murder of the unborn. Either one works for Life or one is helping out the other side.

Of course, but HOW one works for life is important. Picketing an abortion clinic while calling a woman or teenaged girl a "bitch" through a bullhorn isn't going to change ANYONE'S mind.

[Siobhan]

But, has Christ come and told you that the Governor is in peril, and you, my faithful servant, must show her the error of her ways? Why don't you worry more about your own errors? Why must you judge everyone else! She needs your PRAYERS... if you spent more time praying for her, than just spouting off condemning statements, her situation may improve greatly, because the power of prayer can change EVERYTHING!

I pray that you mean wel, but you do not know anything about me, and yet you go on and on writing a script that has nothing to do with me. God be merciful to you.

[ItsJeff]

Well here's something we can all agree on. It's 2:00 in the morning. I'm "playing hookey" tonight because I don't have to go to work tomorrow for the holiday. Siobhan's had a full day yelling at the governor in the parking lot. Let's call it a night : )

[perform_to_strangers]

That's exactly not what I wrote. I wrote, "the Church is the only absolutely certain path to savlation." God has the right to grant salvation where ever He chooses.

[Siobhan]

Of course, but HOW one works for life is important.

The only thing important is that one works for Life. God makes use of every effort offered up to Him.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Okay, it is the only absolutely certain path to salvation... tell me where the Bible says that, also.

[Siobhan]

Siobhan's had a full day yelling at the governor in the parking lot.

You continue to tell stories about me that are only the product of your imagination. I resent it, and I ask that you stop doing so.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

But, we aren't saved by our works! Or, are you saved by YOUR works? Oh, I see! Then you see this as your job! Well, I'll be... may the Pope give you a raise! Okay, or do you mean our rewards in heaven? Let me gues... you have your heart set on one of them MANSIONS in heaven, while the Governor can live in a little split-level?

[Siobhan]

You continue to employ your imagination in a way that is very bizarre. May God take care of you and bless you.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

I'll leave the parking lot, now, so to speak. Find me a seat in the pew, right up front, near the Governor, so I can congratulate her tenacity in warding off the protestors outside. At least she made it inside for mass again, this time. The same can't be said for those outside on the steps. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force him to drink. Goodnight.

[Siobhan]

God take good care of you.

[perform_to_strangers]

You're still missing my point. I know you don't agree with me about the Church. That's fine. It's why I wrote, "Catholics believe ..." Jennifer Granholm is a professing Catholic who is publicly dissenting from the teachings of the Church, teachings that professing Catholics believe come straight from God, in the person of Jesus Christ and in the Holy Sprit speaking through the Apostles and through Scripture. She's in a position to lead others to believe that her belief is either somehow authentic Catholic teaching or that matters of morality are the province of personal speculation. This is why some people are calling for action to be taken, even possibly excommunication. They don't hate her, they don't want her to burn in hell, they don't say anything about her sincerity or goodwill. They just don't want her beliefs on homosexuality and abortion being mistaken as compatible with Catholic beliefs.

If you want a Biblical debate about the truth or falsehood of the Church, I'd recommend you visit the neverending story thread, which is entirely devoted to the subject.

[mvpel]

No, I really don't judge you as a Catholic! Do you judge me as a Baptist? I hope not! I just am pained by your anger for a fellow Christian.

Perhaps you're missing a very fundamental element of Catholicism. The word "catholic" itself comes from the Greek katholikos, meaning "universal, general," derived from kata- (in accordance with) + holos (the whole).

In accordance with... The catechism of the Catholic Church sets forth the established doctrine of the Church. The term "Catholicity" is defined as "adherence or conformity to the system of doctrine held by all parts of the orthodox Christian church."

If you do not adhere or conform to the system of doctrine of the Church, then you cannot consider yourself to be a Catholic in good standing, as I understand it.

Jennifer Granholm holds herself forth as a "Catholic" while publicly rejecting the doctrine of the Church with regard to the killing of the unborn and to homosexuality.

I suspect, and am open to be corrected, that those Catholics that are castigating her, praying for her, and pushing the Cardinal to take action, are motivated by the concern that one might think it possible for one to hold such beliefs and still be a Catholic in good standing, which it is most assuredly not.

If you're a Catholic, you don't get to pick and choose from a smorgasbord of doctrine. That's just not how Catholicism works.

Me, I'm Jewish, but I tend to read a lot.

[kms61]

Disclaimer: I'm basically nonreligious, and don't have a dog in the ongoing Catholic/Protestant fight on FR, so I hope this isn't going to be taken as anti-Catholic...it's not intended that way.

That said, I'd like to know where the line is drawn re: Catholic politicians and the teachings of the RCC. Apparently there's at least some possibility of excommunication for leaders who don't follow the Church's teachings.

How far does this extend? The Pope has spoken out strongly against war in Iraq...should Catholic politicians be antiwar as well? That's just one issue. There are many others.

Should the Church have ultimate veto power over a Catholic officeholder's decisions? I thought JFK had settled that question. Apparently not.

[perform_to_strangers]

In general, I would think that if politicians truly ran as faithful Catholics, rather than trying to divorce their politcal personae from their religious faith, voters would know up front what positions they would take, just by knowing what the Church teaches. So for example, you'd know before you voted that you'd be getting someone pro-life and you'd decide whether you wanted to vote pro-life. Really, not that different than voting for a faithful Republican or a faithful Democrat, except the Catholics would be less likely to jettison their positions once they got elected.

As far as the war goes, I don't know. The Pope hasn't spoken infallibly, so a politician is still free to assess the situation (and if he's in a position to vote on it, I'd hope he had all the information, more than the Holy Father), just as Scalia has with the death penalty. OTOH, it's reasonable to assume that a faithful Catholic would give prayerful consideration to His Holiness's opinions.

[templar]

But, shouldn't we also be careful of doubting the faith of others?

No. Jesus warned us to beware of of false prophets; sheep on the outside and reavenous wolves on the inside. If we don't doubt the faith of others, we will accept their words and actions as being acceptable for a believer. If we don't doubt the faith of others, we will fall victim to the wolves. Remember that we have been told to beware. And remember who told us.

But that has nothing to do with observing the hypocricy of a governor who professes Catholic faith yets accepts abortion and homosexuality. I'm not a Catholic. This is a matter for the Catholics to deal with for themselves. How they do so will speak of how they believe.

[jmaroneps37]

I am an adherent Roman Catholic. My take on granholm is that she should remember that the Roman Catholic is a religion not a club. Obey or depart. It really is that simple. A high profile person like her, represents a potential for her to lead people away from salvation. There are 31 members of congress who claim to be Catholics, and who carry a zero rating from the National Right to Life Committe. These "Catholic Zeros" should be helt accountable as should granholm and gray-out.