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Why Bush's H-Car is Just Hot Air
The New Republic ^ | February 18, 2003 | Greg Easterbrook

Posted on 02/19/2003 10:23:56 AM PST by MurryMom

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To: radioman
Production of hydrogen is simple and efficient

True The correct answer is False. Go back to school. Take physical chemistry and pay particular attention to the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

21 posted on 02/19/2003 10:54:15 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your government is your enemy, and Bush is no conservative)
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To: radioman
Simple, yes. Efficient, yes. But NOT cost effective.
22 posted on 02/19/2003 10:54:39 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
One could argue that the US's appeasement of environmentalists in using liquid Hydrogen has cost us 14 astronaut lives.

The Russians stuck with petrolieum based fuels (Kerosine) in their rockets including their workhorse of manned spaceflight, the Soyuz rocket. It's safety is legendary due primarily to it's simplicity.

The US space shuttle was directed to use liquid Hydrogen back in the 1970s principally to counteract complaints about how previous petrieum based rocket propellants "harmed" the environment. Cryogenic rocket engine technology is tricky and dangerous.

The reason that there is insulation on the External Tank is to keep the cryogenic liquid Hydrogen from boiling off. The Russians don't worry about chunks of foam and ice falling off of their rockets.

The recent change in ET insulation foam was driven by the edict to not use Freon in the foam manufacturing process. The non-Freon foam isn't as structurally sound as the Freon foam, and tends to flake off during launch like what hit the Columbia orbiter's left wing.

The Russians also stick with all room temperature liquid propellants, that lets them launch reliably in all kinds of weather (including blizzards.) The shuttle has solid rocket boosters (with suspect o-rings between the segment joints), to give the shuttle an extra boost of thrust. Since Hydrogen is so light, it is high on exhaust speed (Isp), but low on thrust (Ft), therefore has great performance once you get moving out in space, but not so great at liftoff.

So next time you see a protesting eco-fascist, remind them that their political push for Hydrogen killed the Challenger and Columbia astronauts.*

* For propaganda purposes only, but grounded in more scientific fact than any eco-fascist will use to support the use of Hydrogen.
23 posted on 02/19/2003 10:58:30 AM PST by anymouse
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To: anymouse
Hydrogen back in the 1970s principally to counteract complaints about how previous petrieum based

Thought I read that lH2 was used because of highest available energy for any liquid fuel (by weight).

24 posted on 02/19/2003 11:01:17 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your government is your enemy, and Bush is no conservative)
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To: BlackJack
Whatever happened to America's famous "can do" attitude?

Thank you. It's worth recalling that when JFK challenged America to put a man on the moon in less than a decade the telephone in your home was a simple rotary dial device with positively ancient technology inside and the highest tech item you owned was probably a laughable (by today's standards) black and white television.

25 posted on 02/19/2003 11:02:07 AM PST by mitchbert (Facts are Stubborn Things)
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To: MurryMom
What an absolutely STUPID article (but you probably already knew that).

Anyone with half-a-brain or who knew ANYTHING about this subject knows that any hydrogen fuel cell car will use liquid fuels (gasoline or possibly methanol) and will have an onboard reformer to convert the liquid fuel to hydrogen on demand. This would of course solve the problem of infrastructure, who will refuel the car, etc. that the author is so happy to point out.

Any environmentalist whack-o that would tell the truth would admit that such a system will reduce pollution in that a) both fuels will, by necessity, be sulfur-free (no SOx emissions) and no internal combustion means no NOx emissions. Both of these, as I'm sure you already knew, are what cause acid rain.

Factor in the spinoffs which will inevitably occur from the R&D dollars already being expended on this by private industry and I think it would be obvious that this is going to be a winner.

The "stupid cowboy" Bush strikes again.

26 posted on 02/19/2003 11:03:08 AM PST by Boss_Jim_Gettys
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To: MurryMom
Bush finally tries to appease the environmentalists and it turns out he's merely attempting to deceive the voters yet again.

That's easy, MurryMom, both major political factions of the Republicrat Party have been derelict in their duty to develop a responsible and comprehensive America First! Energy Policy for the last 30 years.

Friends, neither Beltway party is going to drain this swamp, because to them it is not a swamp at all, but a protected wetland and their natural habitat. They swim in it, feed in it, spawn in it.

-- Patrick J. Buchanan, "A Plague on Both Your Houses"

U.S. Petroleum & Crude Oil Overview
(thousand barrels per day)
1960
1965
1970
1975
1980
1985
1990
1995
2000
U.S. Crude Oil Production
7,035
7,804
9,637
8,375
8,597
8,971
7,355
6,560
5,834
U.S. Petroleum Imports
1,815
2,468
3,419
6,056
6,909
5,067
8,018
8,835
11,093
Total
8,850
10,272
13,056
14,431
15,506
14,038
15,373
15,395
16,927
Imports as % of Total
20.5
24.0
26.2
42.0
44.6
36.1
52.2
57.4
65.5

Reflecting their totalitarian, command-economy, communist roots, the environuts have systematicly placed development of our own domestic energy resources off limits. Transnational corporate globalists like Dubya merely ignore their buffoonery and move offshore, leaving our nation hostage to the whacknut demands and evermore dependent on imports.

To maintain our liberty and independence, there are a variety of policies that we should be pursuing. First and foremost would be a flat revenue tariff of 10~15% on ALL imported goods, including oil. That would significantly motivate development of ALL domestic sources of energy production.

On the consumption side, we could also significantly reduce our petroleum consumption, NOT by defying the laws of physics and imposing extremist "efficiency" levels on which there are diminishing returns of investment, but by employing technology that is currently available. Construction of modern, efficient, electriclly powered mass-transportation systems (light rail, high-speed rail and Maglev) in our nation's most densely populated regions and urban areas would provide an efficient and competitive transportation alternative that utilizes an energy source other than petroleum. And the vast quanitites of electricity necessary to offset the petroleum consumption could easily be provided by nuclear power.

27 posted on 02/19/2003 11:03:59 AM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: anymouse
Good points.
28 posted on 02/19/2003 11:04:25 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave)
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To: MurryMom
"which can be used to power a car producing only water,"

Sounds good, but where does all that water go? Could raise the oceans and wipe out coastlines! (You know that's coming -- they're printing up the protest signs right now).

29 posted on 02/19/2003 11:04:34 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: BlackJack
Nuclear power production only got expensive when the eco-fascists started throwing roadblocks in front of nuke power plant construction efforts.

If done right nuclear power generation is both very efficient and cost effective. Dispite their protests to the contrary Japan, France, Canada, China and Germany use nuclear energy for a large part of their power generation. They wouldn't do so if it wasn't cheaper than other types of power plants. Even North Korea built nuke power plants to power their limited industrial base.
30 posted on 02/19/2003 11:07:48 AM PST by anymouse
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To: eastsider
I'm no authority on energy production, but couldn't the electricity be generated from wind power?

Electricity can be generated in many, many ways,
including using gerbils to drive hundreds of millions of tiny treadmill generators.
It's just that not all ways of generating electricity are commercially viable.

31 posted on 02/19/2003 11:09:50 AM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: MurryMom
1. Go suck an egg.
2. Bush is doing more in building future technology than anything your liberal heroes have ever dreamt about doing.
3. If hydrogen won't work, we can always use the fumes from Hillary's undergarments--although there'll be a noxious foul odor, the volatile fumes will last a milenium.
32 posted on 02/19/2003 11:10:26 AM PST by meandog
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To: MurryMom
Your bad breath could someday become a source of energy, MurryMom....
33 posted on 02/19/2003 11:14:18 AM PST by Extremely Extreme Extremist
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To: NittanyLion; MurryMom
This isn't a question of marketing, it's one of science. More energy must be put into producing hydrogen than the hydrogen itself can provide. That is a constant and always will be.

More energy is put into manufacturing flashlight batteries than what the batteries can produce. So does that make flashlight batteries a bad deal?

Think about it for a minute and you will understand why you can't say that energy in vs. energy out equation is the only way to measure the value of a potential source. If we can convert wind, solar, tidal, biomass or nuclear energy, or a combination of them, into a potable fuel source, the economics could very well make a lot of sense.

I don't know if it will happen, but I do know for a fact that fuel cell technology has reached the stage were it makes a lot of sense to start serious R&D of the hydrogen fuel cycle.

34 posted on 02/19/2003 11:18:59 AM PST by Ditto (You are free to form your own opinions, but not your own facts.)
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To: meandog
With hydrogen fuel just think of all the hourse power we could make for our cars and not worry about smog twin super chargers sound good to me.We could make BIGGER suv's
35 posted on 02/19/2003 11:20:28 AM PST by Vaduz
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To: Ditto
More energy is put into manufacturing flashlight batteries than what the batteries can produce. So does that make flashlight batteries a bad deal?

The scale of flashlight batteries is a bit different from that of automobiles. The two can hardly be compared.

36 posted on 02/19/2003 11:21:00 AM PST by NittanyLion
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To: Ditto
More energy is put into manufacturing flashlight batteries than what the batteries can produce. So does that make flashlight batteries a bad deal?

Do you run your car on flashight batteries? You could technically.

37 posted on 02/19/2003 11:35:18 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your government is your enemy, and Bush is no conservative)
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To: freedomworks
AND, from what I understand...this WHOLE THING depends on the use of PLATINUM...?

PEM fuel cells use a Pt catalyst. PEM isn't the only fuel cell chemistry which works well, though... They just happen to have most of the advertising money.

38 posted on 02/19/2003 11:36:51 AM PST by Chemist_Geek ("Drill, R&D, and conserve" should be our watchwords! Energy independence for America!)
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To: ECM

In 1919, Goddard published a short book titled "A Method of Reaching Extreme Altitudes." It garnered some attention, not all positive. In an editorial, The New York Times haughtily dismissed his notion that a rocket could work in a vacuum as well as in an atmosphere, saying Goddard "seems to lack the knowledge ladled out daily in high schools."

Goddard defended himself and told one reporter that "every vision is a joke until the first man accomplishes it." In 1969, as Apollo 11 raced through space and three days before it landed on the moon, the Times printed a correction.

After we're done, I'll expect to receive your written apology. ;-)

39 posted on 02/19/2003 11:39:25 AM PST by Chemist_Geek ("Drill, R&D, and conserve" should be our watchwords! Energy independence for America!)
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To: robertpaulsen
Sounds good, but where does all that water go?

Hmm. Since water is made up of hydrogen, why not just recycle it? Get the hydrogen from your own wastewater!
... where is that marketing department phone number? ...

< sarcasm OFF>

40 posted on 02/19/2003 11:39:56 AM PST by Izzy Dunne (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help me spread by copying me into YOUR tag line.)
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