A World Still Haunted by Ottoman Ghosts

nytimes.com ^ | March 9, 2003 | DAVID FROMKIN

[Destro]

The true evil empire with the genocide of Christians as it's legacy.

[Destro]

bump

[Cicero]

This strikes me as a pretty simpleminded history of the Middle East by a typically undereducated reporter who has probably now read three or four books on the subject.

I suppose I shouldn't complain. At least this poor guy is trying.

[bobi]

But the European powers were surprised when the indigenous European subjects of the empire — including Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria — won independence for themselves.

Greece got its Independence through a brave fight against the Turks. No one can dispute their bravery. It was 1828 I think. Too lazy to check.

Buuut there was a Western naval fleet as well that went againts the Turkish fleet at the same time.

Bulgaria was more or less independent through a direct action by the Russians. Few days ago it was an annerversary of the Bulgarian inderpendence from the Turks and Vladimir Putin was in Bulgaria to remind them how they got their freedom.

Serbia. Well after the 1st failed uprising 1804? then the second in the 1820's the Serbs showed who is the fighting nation in the Balkans. Either they were too brave or too thick headed to fear anything.

Any way there was a western influence in all this as Greece got its borders south of Mount Olympus, Serbia north of Kosovo and Bulgaria east of Mount Pirin.

Macedonia was still under turkish rule .....

[Destro]

The Turks' Prayer against the Christians

Eternal God and creator of all things, and thou O Mahomet his sacred and divine prophet. We beseech thee let us not dread the Christians, who are so mean and silly to rely on a crucified god. By the power of thy right hand, so strengthen ours that we may surround this foolish people, on every side, and utterly destroy them. At length fulfill our prayers and put these miscreants into our hands, that we may establish thy throne for ever in Mecca, and sacrifice all those enemies of our most holy religion at thy tomb. Blow us with thy mighty breath like swarms of flies into their quarters, and let the eyes of these infidels bedazelled with the lustre of our moon. Consume them with thy fiery darts, and blind them with the dust which they themselves have raised. Destroy them all in thine anger. Break all their bones in pieces, and consume the flesh and blood of those who defile thy sacrifice, and hang the sacred light of circumcision on their cross. Wash them with showers of many waters, who are so stupid to worship gods they know not: and make their Christ a son to that God who ne're begot him. Hasten therefore their destruction we humbly entreat thee, and blot out their name and religion, which they glory so much in, from off the face of the earth, that they may be no more, who condemn and mock at thy law. Amen.

[a_Turk]

The article is ok, but wear your hip boots.. Dastro is here..

[Yaron]

Who would have thought a small piece of leather furniture would have caused such ire?

[WOSG]

LOL.

[E Rocc]

I recently read "What Went Wrong?" by Bernard Lewis. While ostensibly about contact between Islam and the West, it was largely about the Ottoman Empire, which of course was the primary contact point. Interesting book overall.

-Eric

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Could be I'm just tired.. but you changed a prayer.. then posted this dribble why??

Seriously, I'm not picking a fight with you.. I just don't understand why you posted this crap.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Ok.. so you didn't "change" anything on the link you provided. But it is still crap. IMHO

[a_Turk]

I'll have to get the book.

[Libertarianize the GOP]

bump

[FirstTomato]

I just got finished reading an interesting book--a history of the Ottoman Empire's harems and the kidnapping and slave trade which supplied young beautiful women from all over Europe for the Sultans. These women were immediately made to convert to Islam, natch.

[a_Turk]

Did you also read that the Ottomans bought their eunuchs from the Venetians, since it was against their religion to castrate? That was a surprise..

[Destro]

I changed a prayer?

[Destro]

Ok.. so you didn't "change" anything on the link you provided. But it is still crap. IMHO

So your angry at me for posting it? or at the person who wrote the prayer or at the men who prayed with it?

[longtermmemmory]

boing

[a_Turk]

Destro, I have never heard of such an awful prayer in my life. How did Sobiesky get his hands on this supposed prayer anyway? Could you enlighten us about it's authenticity?

[RepublicanHippy]

"This strikes me as a pretty simpleminded history of the Middle East by a typically undereducated reporter who has probably now read three or four books on the subject."

Yeh, it looks like one of the books he read is "Balkan Ghosts", hence his title. "Balkan Ghosts: A Journey Through History" is an excellent read for those trying to understand politics and history and "ancient hatreds" in the Balkans and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. Another good book to read is "The Haunted Land: Facing Europe's Ghosts after Communism" by Tina Rosenberg.