A World Still Haunted by Ottoman Ghosts

nytimes.com ^ | March 9, 2003 | DAVID FROMKIN

[a_Turk]

Check out "The Great Game" and "Like Hidden Fire" by Peter Hopkirk. Makes use of a lot of de-classified British Secret Service documents.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

The Ottomans ran hot and cold with regard to other religions. In 1492, when Ferdinand and Isabella kicked the Jews out of Spain, the Ottoman Sultan welcomed as many of the fleeing Jews as he could get. Many of them settled in what is now Israel. Many more in what is now Turkey. Though most of the Turkish Jewish population went to Israel after 1948, there are still about 50,000 Jews in Turkey, who worship freely and have full rights.

One of my many times over great grandfathers made it to the Ottoman Empire then (in a sign that there is stupidity in my family history) decided to go north into Russia. Still, I thank the Ottomans for providing protection to some of my ancestors in a terrible time.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

I'm asking why it was even posted? It seems to be Christian bashing and serves no "good" purpose. IMHO

[Restorer]

I'm asking why it was even posted?

Fairly obvious.

Some Turks in past centuries may or may not have used such a prayer. Posting it is for the purpose of convincing others that Turks today are bad people.

[RepublicanHippy]

"Check out "The Great Game" and "Like Hidden Fire" by Peter Hopkirk. Makes use of a lot of de-classified British Secret Service documents."

WOW! Must be ESP! I had just gone to my bookshelf to find my copy of MISSION TO TASHKENT by F.M. Bailey with an introduction by Peter Hopkirk. Have you read MISSION TO TASHKENT? It's a true story about Colonel F.M. Bailey, a British explorer and naturalist who became a spy working in Bolshevik controlled Central Asia in the early 1900's. One of my favorite books. Bailey was considered by Hopkirk to be "a great game player to his very fingertips."

Hopkirk also wrote a book called "Setting the East Ablaze." Are you familiar with it? Apparently Hopkirk tries to shed more light on Bailey's exploits in Central Asia that Bailey was obliged to omit by British intelligence.

[dsutah]

Now that you mention the trade of beautiful women from all over Europe; I read an intriguing story once. It was about a girl who came from French island of Martinique,(West Indies). She was heading to Europe, I believe, traveling with some family friends. Her father was a wealthy planter/businessman in the island.

On the way, they were attacked by pirates. The pirates killed a lot of people in their party. For some reason, they kept Aimee(the Martinique girl)alive. But they sold her to a Ottoman ruler, or Sultan. Now she joins the harem, and by and by, the Sultan falls in love with her. I don't know if initiallly she had to convert, or if she followed her faith secretly, at first(she was RC). But she not only became the favorite wife of the ruler, but she wound up converting him too! She lived happily with him until he died.

I don't remember if he practiced it openly with her, but some in his goverment were upset by it. I think he even went through a Christian marriage ceremony with her. It was really quite a love story at the time(late 1700's). I wonder if it happened every once in awhile. It was story like Esther's story in the "Bible"(where heroine becomes favorite wife of pagan king).

[FirstTomato]

You are probably thinking of Aimee DeBucq de Revery, a young French girl, cousin of Josephine Bonaparte, who was kidnapped while returning from her convent school and whisked off to the Harem. She is thought to be the woman known as Nakshedil who was a legendary figure in Ottoman harem history, although evidently its never been proven. (some biographers seem to make a definite connection, others don't).

She is mentioned in the book I just read, and I also have seen a film about her life called The Favorite (highly fictionalized) and there have been various biographies/fictional accounts of her life that I looked at many years ago, but much of her life is unknown, of course.

[homeagain balkansvet]

Well, aside from Destro's ranting sympathies... the piece itself isn't bad.

What we have here is the end results of five hundred years of extremely bad rule. The Turkish Republic is actually pretty progressive, but the Turkish Ottoman empire that preceded it was an abomination to God and man, and is rightly on the ashheap of history.

We just need to remember that today's Muslims are not yesterdays' and that the crimes of the past must not be punished on the back of the present. Only the crimes of TODAY can be punished, TODAY.

[dsutah]

That's the girl! I read a short account of her capture and initiation into the harem, and a bit about her life with the ruler thereafter in a book about romantic stories. They were true love stories, some with a bit of a supernatural tinge to them. But I didn't know there was a movie based on, or inspired by her!

I read on a web-site about Martinique, about the history of some of the old homes and people that lived in them. There was a family called "DuBocq"(sp?). But the story I read is very close to the one you've posted!

[Destro]

There have always been Jews as part of the Greek world. You don't have words like Exodus and Genesis in the Bible for nothing.

The Turks needed tax cattle to replace the dead Christians from the depopulated lands. As long as the jews payed the dhimmi tax they were welcomed. More so since the Jews had no land claim in the Balkans.

In the early morning hours of Sunday, March 26, 1430, the army of Sultan Murat II appears before the city gates. Thessaloniki will capitulate after a three-day siege. Generalized looting, massacres, enslavement and deportations occur, perpetrated by the invading troops. Murat II will be forced to personally intervene, on behalf of the population, in order to put an end to the bloodshed. He will personally set free, at his own expense, many prisoners, and he will take measures for the revival and repopulation of Thessaloniki. To that end, he will resettle into Thessaloniki, Turks from Yiannitsa, as well as Christians to whom he grants certain privileges such as communal autonomy and various tax exemptions. All of the above can be considered as pre-history of the Jewish presence in Thessaloniki. The pivotal point is the settlement of 15,000-20,000 Spanish (Sephardic) Jews after 1492, who will make a lasting and seminal contribution to the destiny of the Jewish Community, but also to that of the city as a whole. Those persecuted Jews found shelter in the capital of Macedonia, thus giving her a new profile for the future.

Both Greek and Jew knew the Muslim yoke of the Turk: Dozens of firmans attest to excesses by local authorities in the collection of the poll tax from the Greeks and Jews of Thessaloniki. And the archives of the Venetian embassy in the city describe in sombre colours the ill-treatment of the non-Muslims by the Janissaries stationed in Thessaloniki[42]. Nor did the Sultan himself hesitate to order, in 1636, the execution of Rabbi Judah Kovo, because he judged inadequate in both quantity and quality the cloth submitted in payment of the taxes levied on the Jews of Thessaloniki. There were also abundant instances of special taxes (avarish) to pay for the wars the Sultan was waging. Particularly eloquent is a firman issued in 1646, regarding the expedition against Crete, ordering the judges of the rabbinical courts in the sanjak (prefecture) of Thessaloniki to impose a special tax “like last year of five piastres per household. Likewise each household shall pay an additional tax of ten aspra for travelling expenses and collection dues to the account of the boubasir, as he is called, Mehmet aga”. There are also injunctions against arbitrary taxation: “You are reminded once again that it is strictly forbidden to gather anything more than the sums specified above”[43].

But Ottoman toleration only went so far It was in this climate that Sabbetai Sevi made his appearance in Thessaloniki, in 1655. Coming from Smyrna, he announced in a discourse in the Shialom Synagogue that he was the long-awaited Messiah, the King of Israel and the saviour of the Hebrew people. His speeches had such an impact that the Ottoman authorities were afraid, with the result that in 1666 he was arrested and sentenced to death. In order to save his life, he converted to Islam. The Jews of Thessaloniki were already divided, into those who believed him and those who viewed him as unbalanced and a fake. The former group, about 300 families, followed him in his apostasy, thus creating the peculiar Hebrew-Muslim sect described by the name “Dönme” (apostate).

[Destro]

Learn from history and do not fear it's truths: Today we are accustomed to think of the Mohammedan world as something backward and stagnant, in all material affairs at least. We cannot imagine a great Mohammedan fleet made up of modern ironclads and submarines, or a great modern Mohammedan army fully equipped with modern artillery, flying power and the rest. But not so very long ago, less than a hundred years before the Declaration of Independence, the Mohammedan Government centred at Constantinople had better artillery and better army equipment of every kind than had we Christians in the West. The last effort they made to destroy Christendom was contemporary with the end of the reign of Charles II in England and of his brother James and of the usurper William III. It failed during the last years of the seventeenth century, only just over two hundred years ago. Vienna, as we saw, was almost taken and only saved by the Christian army under the command of the King of Poland on a date that ought to be among the most famous in history—September 11, 1683. But the peril remained, Islam was still immensely powerful within a few marches of Austria and it was not until the great victory of Prince Eugene at Zenta in 1697 and the capture of Belgrade that the tide really turned—and by that time we were at the end of the seventeenth century. From: The Great and Enduring Heresy of Mohammed by Hilaire Belloc

[homeagain balkansvet]

Far more people have died in the last century at the hands of Socialists--that is, in almost all cases, mostly former or putative Christians--than have died at the hands of Muslims.

Just because we're at war with Osama and Saddam doesn't mean we're at war with all of Mohammad's followers. If YOU want to take on the entire Islamic world, the front is that way, comrade. You go ahead.

[Destro]

Your Albanian Mulsim allies killed 2 Polish NATO soldiers this week in FYROM.

[Destro]

Writing in 1937 the great historian Hilaire Belloc was prescient: THE CRUSADES By Hilaire Belloc Belloc shows that the Crusades were a titanic struggle between Christian civlization (threatened both in the Holy Land and in Europe itself) and "the Turk," savage Mongols who had embraced Islam. He explains the practical reasons why the Crusaders initially succeeded and why they ultimately failed--then he predicts (in 1937) the re-emergence of Islam, since Christendom failed to destroy it in the 12th century. Makes history come alive and gives a rare, true appreciation of Christendom and of our Catholic forefathers!

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

Thanks. Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation out there. I would never think the Turks are bad people. I've known a few and even gone to school with them. The ones I've met in person and here at FR are some of the finest people I've had the honor to know.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

We cannot LIVE in the past and expect to LIVE in the future.

While history serves a purpose.. it seems to have a way of holding people back from moving forward. I mean that in regards to ALL people who "hold" grudges. Even "ancient" ones.

Not all Muslims are evil. Yes, there are some.. and there are some who are "evil" who claim to be Christians.

That doesn't mean I will stereotype an entire religion.

It is much more complex than what you are suggesting.

Will I be "aware" of people around me? You bet.. no less than I would watch someone like a Timothy McVeigh.

No less than I'd be on the look out for other radical groups like MEChA, Internationl A.N.S.W.E.R, World Workers Party.. etc.

But posting "hate" about Christians, and crediting it towards ALL muslims or all Turks is not helping ANYTHING.

FRegards, Vets

[a_Turk]

I've got Mission to Tashkent, but haven't read it yet. BTW, Tash means stone and Kent means city in Turkish.

Thanks for the tip on Setting the East Ablaze. I'll have to go get it.

[Celtjew Libertarian]

Like I said, the Turks ran hot and cold. On the whole though, they did a better with regard to the Jews than most Christian nations. Even several years ago, a Turkish friend in grad school expressed pride in his nation's good treatment of Jews and disappointment that much of the Turkish Jewish population had gone to Israel. As for Shabbatai Zevi, he wasn't exactly tolerated within the Jewish community either. Many saw him as a crackpot and excommunicated him. When he was arrested, it was not just because some were seeing him as a messiah. It was because was going to Constantinople with the intent of seizing the Sultan's throne. The fact that they didn't execute him instantly -- because it was a "troopless rebellion" -- is a sign of moderation.

He ended up having free run of the jail, running it more like a palace. According to Dan Ross in Acts of Faith: A Journey to the Fringes of Jewish Identity, while in jail,

"Shabbatai continued to flout Jewish law, reviving the ancient temple sacrifices on Passover and transforming two of Judaism's most sacred fasts ... into feasts. Debauchery with female visitors was rumored to be frequent; as the Messiah Shabbatai abandoned his earlier modesty."

It was at this point, that Shabbatai was given the choice between death or converting to Islam. He converted -- but continued to oscillate between Muslim ritual, Jewish ritual, and rituals, often orgiastic, of his own design. After putting up with six years of this, he went too far and was banished to Albania.

In short, Shabbatai was a nutcase with a following. The Jewish community for the most part rejected him and he attempted rebellion of a sort against the Muslim government. It is, if anything, I sign of Ottoman moderation that they didn't execute him, putting up with him and allowing him relative freedom for ten years.

[AgThorn]

But posting "hate" about Christians, and crediting it towards ALL muslims or all Turks is not helping ANYTHING.

Let's get off the "posting Police" posturing ... I don't find this article doing anything you are saying, and being a person quite interested in history I find it fascinating. I also don't think covering "history" is going to make any 'intelligent' person think that this history slants one against a people. On the otherhand, to know history, culture, and what drives people and how we (and they) may have screwed up our prior run in's can only help us move forward.