These perpetual, relentless, constant jibes at Turkey are at the comic book level of analysis, and should be responded to in kind.
Posted on 03/10/2003 2:29:25 PM PST by Destro
These perpetual, relentless, constant jibes at Turkey are at the comic book level of analysis, and should be responded to in kind.
And I hope I got that right.
Support started to crumble when stories of Ottoman atrocities reached the London papers. The Brits kept the Ottoman Empire just long enough for the nascent German Empire to step in with grand projects such as the Berlin Baghdad railroad.
The much expected re-birth of Turkish influence in the immediate region in 1990 began with the export of tens of thousands of turkic script typewriters to the 'stans of the FSU. The idea became as vapid as the much expected US-German alliance that was peddled at the same time. As we have seen from current events, there is plenty to do At home and the dream has turned to joining the EU rather than becoming a major arbiter of power on the border of Europe and Asia.
VRN
This says it all and disappointment that much of the Turkish Jewish population had gone to Israel.
VRN
I find the prayer of historical interest as well, but I see your point .. he could have introduced it or something as such.
What I hope I said here was: "Destro and eleni121 have no good will for any Turk. To them, the entire Turkish Republic is something like Satan. It's impossible to persuade them."
But you know, there is a reason the world was divided for centuries into Christendom and Islam. Who ever wandered into the wrong neighborhood got hurt (unless he was doing business ... for which both areas of the planet had a bit of a truce going on.)
It was definitely not a nice thing to live under the Turks, who controlled the Serbs, the Bosnians, the Albanians, the larger Greek Islands, Libya, Armenia, etc. until the 19ll-1916 period when they lost a final World Series of wars which stripped them of their last Ottoman possessions, over which they were cruel and rapacious masters.
We tend to consider these conflicts today as if they were the religious or political disputes with which we are familiar here: i.e. "O Gee, should the Interfaith Picnic be at the Methodists this year, or the Baptists?"
Trust me, it couldn't have been any fun to have been a Greek, Armenian, or a Serb when the Turks came through, which they did regularly, seizing every nice-looking boy, girl, man, woman, farm animal, piece of furniture, and all the food for the winter, killing you if you had a mind to protest, or for no reason at all.
Life in Turkey itself could not have been that much better. Today's Turks have emerged from some very recent horrors to become the tough, proud and, friendly people many of us know. But don't expect any Christians from the Balkans to start a fan club soon, when there are still a few people around who remember the very bad times at their hands, first hand.
Right now, Turkey has a tough, "Go West or Go with Islam" collective decision to make. I truthfully do not think anyone from the Christian West can understand the implications, anymore. Much of Islam is at the stage Cromwell was in 500 years ago, when his men hung fellow Christians at the crossroads of Ireland with their own belts. Or when Bloody Mary's men might burn one at the stake for having a vernacular Bible. Or John Calvin was burning his heretics in the streets of Geneva.
Get an English Q'uran and set of the Hadith and read. The Islamic world has simply not moved on to be ready for life in prime time next to "Leave to Beaver" and "Everybody Loves Raymond." You can find plenty of very nice Muslims. But they belong to a very bad outfit.
No one knows that better than the western-oriented Turks who want their people and their country to be on our side of the fence.
It's a harsh thing to say. But, there is no such thing as Islam. At least for Westerners who have long existed in a hierarchical, Aristotelian sort of world, a formless creed with no authority-center, is very hard to grasp. This is what is driving the so-called "Moderate" Muslims mad at this time in their history. They have or can have, absolutely no effect on the direction their "co-religionists" take. They are without authority. If any of them were, one would have long ago issued one of their famous fatwas proscribing the murder and torture of Christians, which continues from one end of the Islamic world to the other until this very hour.
The texts upon which the Muslims base their endless discussion and analysis are subject to interpretation, of course. But when Q'uran says "Kill Infidels," and 100Million or so Muslims believe that is what they are to do, of what possible use are Muslims who claim to be moderate? If Yassir Arafat in his Arabic speeches invokes the Hadith that "No Treaty with an Infidel, need be Honored," what are we to believe? There is no equivalent Pope, or Lutheran Synod, Or Southern Baptist Conference to say what a Muslim is or is not. I, or you, are just as entitled to say it as anyone else. Islam is as Muslims do. It's that simple and that complicated.
Unfortunately, IMHO the only way to co-exist, at present, with Islam is for Muslims to remain in Islamic countries. When they build their numbers in any part of the world in which they reside, they tend to demand first that they answer to only Islamic law, and then that all live under those Islamic laws as they interpret them. Many Muslims are coming to live in the United States. Of course, most of them are no trouble, and an asset to their community. However, their Q'uran actually counsels them to "lie low" until they can take over, and to lie about their intentions to their infidel neighbors. This is not exactly comforting news. Fortunately for them, most Americans are as ill-informed about Islam as they are about their own nominal creeds.
This sect is a world problem. Ataturk knew it, as all who care for the millions of good people trapped in it know it. To me, this is what makes the Turks of our era such a fascinating subject. They are on the horns of this dilemma ... and I have know idea how we might really help.
Our Judeao-Christian world came through its times of trouble and evil, but we are 37 and 7 centuries older than Islam. I hope they are not going to need that time to shape up!
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