1st Amendment Survey (school prayer)

Said freshman | 12 March 2003 | MD high school freshman

[Lil'freeper]

The following is being circulated by a colleague on behalf of his son, a freshman at a local public high school, as part of a project for his government class. It is revealing on many levels as to the quality and slant of the instruction he is receiving. Comments and evisceration* welcomed.

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1st Amendment Survey

1) Can state mandated laws requiring any type of religious practice violate the terms of the 1st Amendment and undermine America’s foundation of having no established religion? (yes) (no)

2) Could having regulated/optional prayer in schools have a negative outcome on student performance? (yes) (no)

3) Could the issue of prayer in schools be solved by the government giving vouchers to students who want to go to a religious school opposed to a private one? (yes) (no)

4) Would making prayer in schools optional cause a backfire from surrounding communities? (yes) (no)

5) Do activists for state regulated school prayer have a justifiable argument to override the 1962 Supreme Court ruling that public schools would not incorporate a prayer? (yes) (no)

6) Does having a state regulated prayer in public schools violate the 1st amendment? (yes) (no)

[Lil'freeper]

I'll pass your responses along to the young man, if you'd like. For his project he needs to know age group (13-20, 20-35, 35+) and sex (M or F). Please FRmail if you'd rather not post such information.

Also, the family are good Christians whom I think the world of, so I know the bias in the survey is not a function of his upbringing.

* Evisceration of the survey, not me. It's not posted as breaking news after all. :)

[Lil'freeper]

There are some interesting assumptions hidden in the way the questions are formed- they seem to be a tortured attempt to parrot someone else's opinion.

One assumption is that a government is responsible for mandating religious practices, either requiring prayer or forbidding it. That is absurd on it's face, yet these questions managed to get a teacher's approval. Second, is there any such thing as an "activist for state regulated school prayer"? The set that would choose to pray in school is not likely to desire the state to set the terms.

My take on it, is that while the best place for prayer may not be the secular classroom, students who choose to pray (in the cafeteria, before a football game, etc) should have the freedom to do so and not be persecuted under any guise. But honestly, the best place for a young person of any faith is anywhere but a public school.

[Lil'freeper]

Hey- check out education "Blair" High style...

[Overtaxed]

1st Amendment ping!

[An.American.Expatriate]

1st Amendment Survey

1) Can state mandated laws requiring any type of religious practice violate the terms of the 1st Amendment and undermine America’s foundation of having no established religion? (yes) (no)

Yes. Any law which in any way regulates (pro or con) relgion violates the 1st Amendment which states "Congress shall make no law ..."

2) Could having regulated/optional prayer in schools have a negative outcome on student performance? (yes) (no)

Matter of opinion. Has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment. Personal opinion = no.

3) Could the issue of prayer in schools be solved by the government giving vouchers to students who want to go to a religious school opposed to a private one? (yes) (no)

There IS no issue about prayer in schools. Congress is not allowed to regulate it. The prohibition applies as well to the state legislatures (14th Amendment). It does NOT apply to any other institution!

4) Would making prayer in schools optional cause a backfire from surrounding communities? (yes) (no)

Unclear question and calls for opinion. Has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment.

5) Do activists for state regulated school prayer have a justifiable argument to override the 1962 Supreme Court ruling that public schools would not incorporate a prayer? (yes) (no)

If the activists are claiming that thier 1st Amendment rights are being violated, no, they do not have a case. NONE of us have 1st Amendment Rights. The First Amendment to the Constitution does not grant a right. If anything, it acknowledges that this right is inherent in each of us and that the Congress of the United States is specifically prohibited from attempting to abridge this fundamental right in any way. The First Amendment is actually unneeded as the people (as in We the People..) did not grant Congress the power to pass laws relating to such matters. If we didn't give them the power to do it, they can not assume it because thier powers are strictly limited.

6) Does having a state regulated prayer in public schools violate the 1st amendment? (yes) (no)

YES. The moment the state attempts to regulate religion, it is a violation of the 1st Amendment.

FYI, M 35+

[HairOfTheDog]

(13-20, 20-35, 35+)

Dang kids anyway! - Everyone over thirty five is just "plus". We are so old.

[sauropod]

You are a pantload.

There is only one God. There is only one Savior.

Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything. Prayer belongs in schools. Look at what has happened to them since it was taken out.

[valkyrieanne]

Alright, I'll play. Let's look at the survey line by line, and instead of Christianity, let's think of a particularly nasty and malignant form of Islamic fundamentalism, where the "prayer in question" isn't the Our Father, but praying as part of the five times a day obeisance to Mecca. 1) Can state mandated laws requiring any type of religious practice violate the terms of the 1st Amendment and undermine America’s foundation of having no established religion?
Let's say some state with a large Muslim population (Michigan, maybe?) passes a law *mandating* 5X/day prayer to Mecca in schools. Answer: YES

2) Could having regulated/optional prayer in schools have a negative outcome on student performance?
Your student is a Christian or Jew, and the majority of students are participating in in-class prayers to Mecca. Answer: YES

3) Could the issue of prayer in schools be solved by the government giving vouchers to students who want to go to a religious school opposed to a private one?
Islamic schools like the one in MD recently featured in the news use translations of Saudi textbooks which teach anti-semitism, anti-Christian views, and refuse to recognize the state of Israel. Now imagine these schools getting voucher money. Answer: NO

4) Would making prayer in schools optional cause a backfire from surrounding communities?
How would Christians, Jews, and nonbelievers in the community feel if their children were expected to pray Islamic-style, in Arabic, to Allah during the school day? Answer: YES

5) Do activists for state regulated school prayer have a justifiable argument to override the 1962 Supreme Court ruling that public schools would not incorporate a prayer?
Do Islamic fundamentalists have a case that public schools should incorporate their prayers and prayer styles (including regulations that girls and women should wear head coverings?) Answer: NO

6) Does having a state regulated prayer in public schools violate the 1st amendment?

When you think about this in terms of fundamentalist, wahhabi Islam, is there any *doubt?*

It's not just about Christians getting public schools to officially recognize their faith in school observances during the school day. Allowing the schools to do this leaves the door wide open for Islamist expressions in schools as well.

[Lil'freeper]

I know it. That middle group is a strange one, too- overlaps gen X and Y. I don't want my answers mingled with those dumb genYers! :)

[An.American.Expatriate]

Whether prayer "belongs" in a given situation is a subjective question and it is not the governments role to determine "when" the appropriate time to pray may or may not be.

You state that prayer is "personal" and whether some else prays or not is essentially none of my business. Agreed. However, you then pass judgment when you say that "So, in our public, tax-supported schools, prayer does not belong."

I'm confused. Which argument do you support?

[Constitutional Defender]

Sir, I can hear and understand the frustration in your message. And you are absolutely RIGHT!!!! You stated in your post, “School is the place where kids are supposed to learn. “ Unfortunately it seems you might have missed a day or two in your 5th grade history class when the Constitution was studied.

Lets review what the Constitution says.
"Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Now as you can plainly see, the "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; "

Per Amendment 1, No Government sponsored school can impose anything religious on your child. In the same sentence the Congress cannot prevent Lil' Freeper or anybody else from praying in their class.

Sir, you said "When it comes to prayer, and anything to do with religion, the only kids you have authority and responsibility for are your own." Sir, I could not agree with you more! You are right on the money with that comment. So why are you trying to tell Lil’ Freeper he should not be allowed to pray in his school? And by the way, nobody is trying to force your children to pray at their school either.

You said in your post "I don't think school is the place to pray. School is the place where kids are supposed to learn." When you were a child in school did another child near your desk praying prevent you from learning the Constitution?

Perhaps you should calm down and spend more time teaching your children the Constitution and all their within it that protects their freedoms, and less time trying to deny those same freedoms to someone else.

[Constitutional Defender]

Sir, there you go again, rewriting the Constitution. You may stand for religion and schools separate but the Constitution dose not. IT says nothing about seperating religion and schools. N-O-T-H-I-N-G

If we must, lets review again. There must have been somebody else praying next to you again.

"Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

You stated "This country was founded on the premise that everyone should be free to follow the religion of their choice. Or not follow any religion at all." Sir, please make your mind up. You can't have it both ways. Either force your will on students’ religious practices of others or leave them alone.

Your last statement was "As soon as you enter one of our public schools, you're in the public domain, supported by everyone's tax dollars. And you check your religion at the door." Sir, you really need to decide if you are arguing for freedom or fascism.

[Lil'freeper]

I'm one of those "Well, heck- the whole compulsary public schooling scheme is unconstitutional" people and am in the process of forming my responses to the young man (who is not me, and I'm not a he ;) ). I have inadvertantly argued myself into a conundrum. My brain is tired and muddled, but perhaps you, or another student of the Constitution, could answer a question for me.

Where in the Constitution are the states bound to the same standard as Congress? In otherwords, if Congress cannot restrict religion why can't the states? This is not a belligerant question, I'm just not finding the right reference...

[sauropod]

I am sorry you don't like what I put forward. I would argue with you however, that you are straining at a gnat, yet swallowing a camel.

Our country was founded by Deists and Christians. Who was it that said "America is great because she is good. When she ceases to be good, she will ceast to be great." De Tocqueville?

I reject your premise. What you are selling is moral relativism. Michael Newdow would be proud of you.

[countrydummy]

"There are some interesting assumptions hidden in the way the questions are formed- they seem to be a tortured attempt to parrot someone else's opinion."

I totally agree with that! These questions are so set as to keep someone's mind going all over the world in 80 seconds! They are not geared to the real issues! If children want to pray, they should have the right! My heavens, we are now forcing our children to study the Koran and dress in Muslim dress? Case closed!

[countrydummy]

excellent replies!

[countrydummy]

Now I really like this one! I wish I was as articluate! No I can spell either! :-)

[An.American.Expatriate]

Hi Lil'

the 14th Amemdment is the one you are seeking . . .