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Oriana Fallaci: Rage and doubt of a threatened civilisation
The Sunday Times ^ | March 16, 2003 | Oriana Fallaci

Posted on 03/15/2003 3:33:34 PM PST by MadIvan

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The Sunday Times is reprinting this article which originally appeared in the Wall Street Journal. Well worth a re-post, I thought.

Regards, Ivan


1 posted on 03/15/2003 3:33:34 PM PST by MadIvan
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To: TEXOKIE; Pan_Yans Wife; mumbo; Siouxz; Otta B Sleepin; Mr. Mulliner; Semper911; Bubbette; ...
Bump!
2 posted on 03/15/2003 3:33:55 PM PST by MadIvan (Learn the power of the Dark Side, www.thedarkside.net)
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To: MadIvan
Read this one before... VERY GOOD.

You find the greatest stuff. Thanks!
3 posted on 03/15/2003 3:36:00 PM PST by Pan_Yans Wife (Lurking since 2000.)
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To: MadIvan
"Had Mr Clinton spent less time with voluptuous girls"


Monica?
4 posted on 03/15/2003 3:38:45 PM PST by Bulldogs22
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To: MadIvan
Read it in the WSJ Thursday or so. Surprized that it did not turn up on FR sooner.

That's a bump.
5 posted on 03/15/2003 3:40:25 PM PST by Poincare ((not a good time for a Frenchish screen name))
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To: MadIvan
As a proud defender of the West?s civilisation, and decided to defend it to the last breath, without reservations I should join Mr Bush and Mr Blair barricaded in a new Fort Alamo. Without reluctance I should fight and die with them. And this is the only thing about which I have no doubts at all.
Indeed. We should all take our places on the barricades.

I respectfully disagree with Fallaci about the "texture of Islam" etc. People generally prefer freedom to oppression, even our Muslim brothers and sisters.
6 posted on 03/15/2003 3:40:25 PM PST by Asclepius (hoping for the best)
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To: MadIvan
Bump - great read.
7 posted on 03/15/2003 3:52:44 PM PST by TheOtherOne
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To: MadIvan
This is as confusing to read in The Sunday Times as it was in the Wall Street Journal. She argues so much with herself that it's hard to see what she really wants to happen. But the last two paragraphs maks it clear: the battle is to defend Western civilization against Islamic fundamentalism and oppression. This battle, like the Alamo, is worth dying for.
8 posted on 03/15/2003 3:53:28 PM PST by AZLiberty
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To: AZLiberty
THIS is what I feel is the essence of Fallaci: As my father said when he asked the anti-fascists to join the resistance and as I say when I talk to those who honestly believe in a Pax Americana, people must conquer freedom by themselves. Democracy comes from civilisation. And in both cases one must know what they consist in. How I wish this nation could read and take to heart the lessons this woman has learned through blood and fear. Islam does not direct its adherents toward democracy, it directs its enslaved minds toward theocracy. If the Bush administration is making one fundamental error, it is in expecting minds so long oppressed by Islamism to embrace democratic principles.

The West is in a war for its survival. Perhaps Usama acted too soon (impelled, one could conjecture now, by the insistence of his associate of convenience, Saddam), but the fact of our war with radical Islamism is upon us in full. Now is the time to knock over the pins of this cult of allah underpinned by forced adherence to the worship of a false god of peace. Now is the time to offer liberation and see what will come of it. At least, when liberating, we can destroy the current stocks of weapons of mass destruction ... until the radicals develop more as they pour out lying phrases of freindship and cheap oil. ...

Yes, I've grown very skeptical of peaceful coexistence with the vast majority of Islam, for it is hallmarked mostly (because of Saudi Wahhabiism, no doubt) by undercurrents of intolerance, suspicion, and fanaticism. I watch men like Mansoor Ijaz perform on the news, yet I know in my heart that he represents only the small minority practice of Islam. For the brainwashed majority, jihad is the obliteration of anything not stamp approved by the radicalized Imams, world-wide.

I hope Fallaci lives to be 120! And continues to issue these sometimes conflicted missives. Perhaps more will awaken to the truths now living themselves out on the world stage. Westerners and Islamics may yet awaken, but I'm becoming more skeptical with every treacherous move by France and Germany and Russia ... and the democrat party of America, as it tries in every way it can, to thwart this administration in order to win future elections among a possibly decimated population assaulted all the more due to democrat obstructionism and treasonous rhetoric from their deposed from rule leadership.

9 posted on 03/15/2003 4:15:54 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: blam; Alamo-Girl; backhoe; Woahhs; Victoria Delsoul; William Wallace; f.Christian; Bryan; ...
This article and thread are a long read, but, I trust, worth your time with it.
10 posted on 03/15/2003 4:18:37 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: AZLiberty
I prefer Patton's analogy about dying for this war: I (or we) won't die at the barricades of this war. Instead we will kill, we will send them back to Allah in droves. The virgin factory won't be able to keep up.

She's right about the enemies of the west which are already in the west, however. We need to treat them as the enemy that they are and deal with them on a permanent basis. They must be flushed out, and eliminated from the gene pool.

The left speaks of a coming revolution here in the US - and maybe they are right about that. How foolish on their part, since they don't own guns. But once joined, the internal warfare that they may indeed initiate will finally cleanse this land of their communist ways. For that, I would thank Bin Laden.
11 posted on 03/15/2003 4:18:39 PM PST by 11B3 (.308 holes make invisible souls. Belt fed liberal eraser.)
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To: 11B3
I sincerely hope you do not mean that last paragraph. Civil war in this day and age would be the end of the Republic.
12 posted on 03/15/2003 4:21:33 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MadIvan
"In Europe you have only one friend, one ally: Tony Blair. But Mr Blair, too, leads a country that is invaded by the Moors and hides that resentment. Even his party opposes him and, by the way, I owe you an apology, Mr Blair.

I owe it to you because in my book The Rage and the Pride, I have been unfair to you."

Oriana was very hard on Blair in her book and it is good to see that she has modified her view of the PM and readily admits it. I recommend her book to all. That woman can write.
13 posted on 03/15/2003 4:22:09 PM PST by wolf24
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To: MadIvan
What you quietly call “differences of opinion” are in reality pure hate... Do you know why? Europe is no longer Europe. It is a province of Islam, as Spain and Portugal were at the time of the Moors.

In a large sense, she is very correct.

Europe has forsaken it's Christian roots and replaced them with the shallow tendrils of secular humanism, which is best exemplified by their socialism. They have lost their moral compass, so they don't even know which way to turn to get back home.

The Islamics have merely seen the wide-open rotting breach and poured their alien masses through into a decaying civilization which they intend to eventually rule by the bloody sword.

14 posted on 03/15/2003 4:30:36 PM PST by Gritty
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To: MHGinTN
Good article.

BTTT

15 posted on 03/15/2003 4:36:38 PM PST by mommadooo3
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To: MHGinTN
My goodness, what an article. It was so long I almost didn't read it but I sure am glad I did.

MM

16 posted on 03/15/2003 4:40:09 PM PST by MississippiMan
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To: MadIvan
Oriana started to see the light when she wrote her book on Lebanon and the horrors commited by the Muslims there. My, she has certainly come around to the right! As many of us have...
17 posted on 03/15/2003 4:40:30 PM PST by eleni121
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To: MadIvan
Wow. I got really scared after reading that. I feel we are very alone, and most of Europe will be Muslim in 50 years. These idiot peaceniks HERE need to knock it off.

Ivan, your posts are excellent.
18 posted on 03/15/2003 4:42:30 PM PST by Lanza
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To: MadIvan
"When in the name of peace we surrender to violence, tyranny, when in the name of peace we resign to fear, we give up dignity and freedom, it is no longer peace. It’s suicide. "

Patrick Henry redux - and truer words were never spoken.
19 posted on 03/15/2003 4:48:51 PM PST by SarahW
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To: MHGinTN
I LOVE Oriana! Thanks for the Ping.

Last time there was an Oriana thread....I posted the entire Rage & Pride.

I will just include a link this time :)

http://www.borg.com/%7Epaperina/fallaci/fallaci_1.html
20 posted on 03/15/2003 4:58:16 PM PST by Calpernia
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To: MadIvan
I agree with some of her points but I disagree with just as much.

How can she compare the USSR's presence in Afghanistan to ours? The USSR did ask the women to take off their Burka's, but they did not liberate the Afghan people, they merely went to impose a different form of oppression: communism.

Her article is full of a kind of European chauvinism, that some how Europeans have the capacity to appreciate liberty but that the people in the middle east aren't. She completely glosses over how we established freedom in Japan, and complete ignores that we created or help maintain the viability of democracies in many places in Asia, such as South Korea, Taiwan, Phillipines, etc, none of which have a historical affinity for liberty prior to our arrival.

She goes on about how liberty was "returned" to the Eurpoeans and that in the Middle East they never had it and therefore won't really want it.
I say she is wrong. Human being are born with the asperation to be free, that longing is in all of us, including those living under tyranny in the middle east.

21 posted on 03/15/2003 5:06:04 PM PST by Truthsearcher
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: MadIvan
I love this woman.
23 posted on 03/15/2003 5:20:40 PM PST by marron
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To: Truthsearcher
Perhaps the years/lifetimes lived under Islamic law in one form or fashion, while living under political despots has cause the desire new take root, to be truly free and allow neighbors to be truly free to worship the religion of their choosing. Little will be accomplished by giving free elections to people who live under theocratic rule self imposed then transferred to religious Imams. Look at Iran. The struggle for real freedom is in real danger of being suppressed yet again. Religious totalitarianism is more insidious to root out of the psyche than the iron fist of political totalitarianism. The Middle East is hallmarked by religious totalitarianism, Islamism. The radicals outnumber the 'jihad is a personal quest of the soul' Islamists.
24 posted on 03/15/2003 5:26:16 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
Obviously it take some time and it's a process, you don't expect a new born baby to be able to handle the rigorous of life, you nurture him and teach him and protect him until he grows up.

I don't expect the Iraq (or any Mid East nation) to transform into a western democracy overnight. But with our help over time it will happen.

25 posted on 03/15/2003 5:31:42 PM PST by Truthsearcher
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To: MadIvan
Excellent article, since 9/11 I've come to be an admirer of Oriana Fallaci, hadn't heard of her before.

As for wars of survival, the situation is not nearly so grim. So far we're fighting a relative handfull of cave dwelling extremists.

I don't disagree with Fallaci's characterizaion of islam as a primitive cult of mindless godbots, but the fact of the matter is, now that 9/11 awoke America from our PC stupor, islam simply cannot mobilize the force necessary to seriously threaten our civilization. If they were even fractionally capable of this kind of effort, Israel would have ceased to exist long ago.

That being said, Europe may eventually be swallowed up by islamic immigration and birth rates, but I suspect they'll be awoken by their own 9/11 type attacks before its too late.

At least now its fair to call Islam the malevolent virus that it is. Imagine saying that before 9/11!

26 posted on 03/15/2003 5:31:42 PM PST by rageaholic
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To: rageaholic
May I offer a freindly observation?...

If they were even fractionally capable of this kind of effort, Israel would have ceased to exist long ago. You might want to incorporate one equation into your calculus: we hold nuclear weapons but would not nuke Mecca or Damascus or Baghdad as suicide murderers slaughter scores of our citizenry, but if the jihadis were to mobilize more than the proxy Palestinians to do their dirty work in Israel, the Israelis would use their nukes that way. Never underestimate the bloodlust of the radical Islamics, for if we were nuetralized, they would instantly turn to Tel Aviv as a next target, willingly sacrificing millions of fellow Arabs to eliminate Israel and then rule the world in Sharia law. Do you think the French would stand up to them? hardly

27 posted on 03/15/2003 5:39:57 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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To: MadIvan
What an amazing woman! She takes my breath away!
28 posted on 03/15/2003 5:44:10 PM PST by Travis McGee (--- I don't own any "assault rifles," just Homeland Defense Rifles. It's my patriotic duty. ---)
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To: MHGinTN
Tel Aviv as a next target, willingly sacrificing millions of fellow Arabs to eliminate Israel and then rule the world in Sharia law

That's been their goal for as long as I can remember, and that's my point. Even a billion muslims can't crush a tiny Western nation like Israel.

29 posted on 03/15/2003 5:51:05 PM PST by rageaholic
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To: MHGinTN
Do you think the French would stand up to them? hardly

Not at the present. But they have in the past, remember Charles Martel and the Moors at Tours.

30 posted on 03/15/2003 5:53:53 PM PST by rageaholic
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To: MHGinTN; habs4ever; SAMWolf; Sabertooth; ArneFufkin; Alberta's Child
The modern concepts of freedom and democracy are totally unrelated to the ideological texture of Islam, and totally opposed to the despotism and tyranny of theocratic states. In that ideological texture, it is God who commands, it is God who decides the destiny of man, and men are not the children of God: they are his subjects, his slaves. Inshallah - as God wants - inshallah.

Thus in the Koran there is no room for individual judgment, individual choice and freedom. There is no room for a regime that, at least in law, is based on equality and universal suffrage. In fact Muslims do not understand these modern concepts. They refuse them and hope to erase them from our lives by invading and conquering us.

Thanks Marvin. Another good article by Oriana Fallaci. She is right about the Muslims, and she is also right with her assertion that America has been attacked and has the right to defend itself. As she well stated, "this is not a liberation war, a war like the second world war. (By the way: neither is it an 'oil war', as the pacifists who never yell against Saddam or Bin Laden maintain in their rallies. Americans do not need Iraqi oil.) It is a political war. A war made in cold blood to respond to the holy war that the enemies of the West declared upon the West on September 11. "

And to those who say, there is no connection between Saddam and Al-Qaeda, let's not forget that Saddam had connections with Al-Qaeda and supports and finances terrorism. He has rewarded each Palestinian terrorist's family with $25,000, plus he has never disarmed or complied with the UN resolutions. Under Chapter VII charter of the UN the same UN resolutions which Saddam has failed to comply over the last 12 years specifically authorizes its enforcement by "all necessary means."

31 posted on 03/15/2003 5:59:52 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Victoria Delsoul
Bump for an excellent article.

Though I would ask all Freepers to avoid any references to U.N. mandates when it comes to this topic. Just as the United States should never be constrained by the U.N. in pursuing its own interests in the world, neither should it ever use a "mandate" (or even 10,000 mandates) from that useless organization to justify military action.

32 posted on 03/15/2003 6:47:47 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: MHGinTN
Wonderful Signora Italiana BTTT
33 posted on 03/15/2003 6:54:33 PM PST by wardaddy (careful of the black flag....those threads are nasty)
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To: Victoria Delsoul
we have realised too late that our values are in danger

Too many still don't realize it.

34 posted on 03/15/2003 7:02:23 PM PST by SAMWolf (The French are cordially invited to come to Wisconsin and smell our dairy air)
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To: Alberta's Child
Though I would ask all Freepers to avoid any references to U.N. mandates when it comes to this topic. Just as the United States should never be constrained by the U.N. in pursuing its own interests in the world, neither should it ever use a "mandate" (or even 10,000 mandates) from that useless organization to justify military action.

You're right about that. However, Bush SR's pursuit of the UN mandate when Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990 brought us where we are today. Thus this is a continuation of the Gulf War, which ended with a ceasefire in 1991. The terms of which specified Saddam's immediate disarmament of all weapons of mass destruction.

35 posted on 03/15/2003 7:06:30 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: SAMWolf
Too many still don't realize it.

That's unfortunately true.

36 posted on 03/15/2003 7:08:09 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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She paints an overly dark picture, perhaps to capture attention and make some good points. But her near-doom conclusion overlooks an important fact: Whether or not the people of Iraq are ready to earn its freedom, the people of Iran ARE ready and most likely will be able to form a functional democratic form of government, if/when they are able to depose the current regime.
37 posted on 03/15/2003 7:16:48 PM PST by Diddle E. Squat
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To: Victoria Delsoul
You're right. What is interesting, though, is that I was critical of George Bush Sr. in 1991 for the same reason I've been critical of George W. Bush in 2003 -- If it is in the best interests of the U.S. to wage war against a foreign nation, then why get the U.N. involved in the first place? Look at the difficult position that President Bush now finds himself in -- after making that case that it was important to go through the U.N., he now has to explain why it is important to ignore them.

And even if we were able to secure U.N. approval, why the heck would we ever want the U.N. to enforce a cease-fire agreement under any circumstances?

38 posted on 03/15/2003 7:17:35 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Alberta's Child
If it is in the best interests of the U.S. to wage war against a foreign nation, then why get the U.N. involved in the first place?

I agree. I don't like the UN either.

39 posted on 03/15/2003 7:20:25 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Victoria Delsoul
On a side note, I think the FreeRepublic Quote of the Month goes to someone who posted this gem on a thread about the Elizabeth Smart case:

"It's a good thing Hans Blix wasn't in charge of the search effort -- that poor girl would have been lost forever."

40 posted on 03/15/2003 7:24:34 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: MadIvan; zot
In a world of yappy talking heads and interchangeable pundits, Oriana Fallaci stands alone.
41 posted on 03/15/2003 7:25:42 PM PST by Interesting Times (Eagles Up! Join the Rally for America...)
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To: Alberta's Child
Well, remember it wasn't the police who found her but the public who watched the TV show "most wanted" and recognized David Brian Mitchell's face. By the way, there is so much about this case then what we have been told. The media keeps calling her "little girl" yet, the parents and relatives called her "young woman."
42 posted on 03/15/2003 7:30:05 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Alberta's Child
then= than
43 posted on 03/15/2003 7:32:15 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Victoria Delsoul
I know -- I just thought that was a funny quote. LOL.

I've gone through a lot of threads on that case, and I agree with you -- there is a lot about it that we haven't heard. In fact, there was something fishy about that story last year, but I never questioned it because it would have been in bad taste with a missing child involved.

Now that she's back home, I'd say it's even more strange.
44 posted on 03/15/2003 7:38:29 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Alberta's Child
I never questioned it because it would have been in bad taste with a missing child involved.

Now that she's back home, I'd say it's even more strange.

That's why I don't post on those threads. The last buzzword is that she was brainwashed. I have never seen or read a case when someone so brainwashed could behave as if nothing has happened in a matter of minutes after the cops talked to her. Her photos look better and more cheerful than before this ordeal. I just don't know what to think, but it doesn't sound right.

45 posted on 03/15/2003 7:45:47 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Truthsearcher
She completely glosses over how we established freedom in Japan

No she doesn't. Perhaps you skipped over this part of her article:

In Japan, those two pieces of chocolate were somehow a gift, a refund for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But Japan had already started its march towards progress and did not belong to the world that in my book I call “the mountain”. A mountain that for 1,400 years has not moved or changed, has not emerged from the abyss of its blindness. In other words, Islam

She points out is that Japan was not part of that unmoveable "mountain" that is Islam. So they had the possiblity to change, and they did.

It is naive to think that 1400 years of an oppressive, intolerant religious tradition called Islam will be changed over night.

46 posted on 03/15/2003 7:56:32 PM PST by stripes1776
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To: MHGinTN
Thanks for the heads up!
47 posted on 03/15/2003 8:06:53 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Victoria Delsoul
I think you are a very discerning person. Or a good judge of character. Or both!
48 posted on 03/15/2003 8:21:39 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: MadIvan
Great post.
49 posted on 03/15/2003 8:30:37 PM PST by Nachum
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To: Alberta's Child
:-)
50 posted on 03/15/2003 8:41:37 PM PST by Victoria Delsoul
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