American Bishop Bars Faithful from War Effort

Catholic World News ^ | March 18, 2003 | staff

[TradicalRC]

I am refering to Matthew 23:23. A lot of Christians equate Phariseeism with following the rules in a strict manner. However, that is not Christ's criticism. They are being held accountable for not following the weightier matters of law such as "justice and mercy and good faith". I would also point out that Christ here makes a distinction between justice and mercy and neglects niether. Many modern Christians tend to sacrifice one for the other. My translation is the New American Bible-St. Joseph edition.

[BearArms]

Correct. The Pope can only speak infallibly on the subject of faith and morals. Therefore, when the Pope says abortion is a mortal sin, it is a mortal sin whether or not someone in their conscience can justify it.

Has the pope spoken infallibly on abortion? I was under the impression that he hadn't.

But assuming the teaching on abortion is considered infallible, if the pope's infallibility is only valid in areas having to do with faith and morals, then can't a catholic take a pro-choice position (which is a political position concerning the level of legal restriction on the activity) and at the same time adhere to the church's teaching by reserving a personal moral opposition to the act of abortion? After all, I don't think that very many catholics wish to turn every last moral teaching in the catechism into secular law.

[Ditto]

Read carefully.

Bishop John Michael Botean, the head of the Romanian Catholic eparchy (diocese) of St. George in Canton, Ohio-- which has jurisdiction over all Byzantine-rite Romanian Catholics living in the US-- invoked the full measure of his authority in a Lenten Letter to his people. The bishop declared with "moral certainty" that the proposed attack on Iraq "does not meet even the minimal standards of the Catholic just-war theory."

This is not anyone speaking for the Roman Catholic Church!

[griffin]

"You still did not answer my question: was Luther guided by the Holy Spirit but the Catholic Church was not? How do you know this?"

I believe ALL Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit. I believe Luther was a Christian. However, I believe men sin and when they sin they have temporarily turned away from God. Just because one is guided by the Spirit one minute does not mean that that is the case the next.

[griffin]

So would you think that your Priest would consider Enoch God breathed?

[griffin]

"I am refering to Matthew 23:23. A lot of Christians equate Phariseeism with following the rules in a strict manner. However, that is not Christ's criticism. They are being held accountable for not following the weightier matters of law such as "justice and mercy and good faith". I would also point out that Christ here makes a distinction between justice and mercy and neglects niether. Many modern Christians tend to sacrifice one for the other. My translation is the New American Bible-St. Joseph edition."

I do believe in adhearing to rules. We as imperfect humans can't do it perfectly. But it makes a difference who's rules are given more weight. God gave us His Law to show us we can't follow them perfectly and even if we break one rule, one time, we are deserving of eternal punishment.

Agreed. Justice and mercy are two of many aspects of God. Another being wrath. One which I have no desire to experience. :) My version is currently NKJV and NASB used at times.

[Arthur McGowan]

No. It's not a sore spot. I have discussed the issue at great length with many others on FR. I am not an admirer or defender of the bishops. My objection to your comment was not the subject matter. My objection to your comment was that it was stupid.

[Arthur McGowan]

"The feeling's mutual"? Funny, I didn't say anything at all about my feelings.

[Arthur McGowan]

You have a lot of nerve. You make a very nasty, unclever, bigoted remark, and when this is pointed out to you, you get huffy, as though you've been attacked personally. I'm reporting you for anti-Catholic bigotry, which is not something that is welcome on FreeRepublic.

[Gophack]

Abortion is a mortal sin because abortion is the killing of an innocent human person and therefore against one of the ten commandments. I don't know if any Pope has spoken infallibly on abortion per se, but I know that the Church has opposed abortion (before it was called abortion) from its earliest days.

Your second question is a moot point in light of the fact that abortion breaks one of the ten commandments. No Catholic can remain in good standing and encourage others to have an abortion, either personally or by supporting their "legal right" to have an abortion, regardless of one's own personal feelings regarding abortion. Catholics may be torn on this issue, and I'm sure many are. In that case, they must pray for understanding and wisdom to accept the teachings of the Church, which are handed down by God and through His Son, Jesus Christ. But they can not actively oppose the teachings of the Church.

I have a big problem, personally, with people who say they are personally pro-life (they would never have an abortion themselves), but say they "support a woman's right to choose". My first question: Why are they pro-life? Why would they never have an abortion themselves? The answer has to be one of two things: either they believe the unborn child is in fact a human being from the earliest days of conception; or, they want to support the teaching of their church (Catholic and many other Christian denominations oppose abortion). If they believe the unborn are, in fact, human beings, how can they support anyone else killing this human being? If they don't believe the unborn are human beings, then why support the teaching of the church? Wouldn't they think the church was in error?

Catholic and pro-life Protestant churches believe abortion is wrong because abortion takes the life of an innocent human person. Therefore, under no circumstances, would it be OK for ANYONE to take that innocent life.

Our society has really become hardened in our view of life. Life has become expendable. Women struggle with the "decision" to abort because they have no support -- their boyfriends and mothers are pressuring them "not to ruin their life" and they receive little support and comfort. Yes, they made a mistake ... but should one mistake mean they need to make a greater mistake? One that not only torments their emotional well-being, but their eternal soul?

God bless.

[BearArms]

Hi, thanks for the reply. The point I wanted to make was that Catholics often decide that the church is wrong on this matter or that, and then side with a position that is against it's teaching. Many of the same Catholics then condemn other Catholics for doing the same in matters where they happen to agree with Church teaching.

You pointed out that you believe the Iraq conflict is a just war, and therefore support it despite the pope's passionate opposition. I see this as somewhat similar to a Catholic who may understand that others who do not share the same religious faith may come to different conclusions about the value of embryonic human life. Such a Catholic might decide to personally follow the teachings of the Church on the matter of abortion, but may also decide to oppose laws that would imprison or otherwise punish those who sincerely disagree with this teaching.

Please bear in mind, also, that both of these issues (Iraq and abortion) are matters of life and death. While I happen to agree with you that the Iraq war is justified, many, including the pope, passionately disagree because they know that the prosecution of this war will cause the death of many innocent civillians, including children. If, in the eyes of the church, a pro-choice person colludes in the taking of innocent human life by merely supporting legal abortion, then doesn't a person who merely supports this war do the same?

[bmwcyle]

I wish they wanted to protect American molested children more.

When Jesus was asked about protecting children---

Mark 9:42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

Get the millstones ready for the leaders of the Catholic Church

[ZULU]

Too bad Vlad Dracul isn't around. He would laugh a silent laugh and make sure this idiot bishop saw the "point" of our actions.

[Gophack]

I understand the point you are trying to make, and I do pray for a speedy and quick end to this war. But you can't compare a just war with abortion.

Governments have a moral obligation to protect their citizens from attack. Saddam Hussein has been funding and sheltering terrorists who killed American citizens abroad and in our country, and has not complied with the 1991 UN resolutions to disarm.

It is tragic that innocent people die in war. I certainly don't want any innocent civilians, particularly children, to be killed in bombing raids. We can and should pray for them.

I do have an obligation as a Catholic to listen to the Pope and give weight to his arguments. He is opposed to this war because he believes more people will die from it than by not doing anything at all. I don't know if he is right, but I do give strong leanings to his position. But he has not said that no Catholic may participate or support the war, nor will he.

But abortion is completely different. There is no justification for taking an innocent human life in its mother's womb. The baby isn't an invading force, it is a human person and a new creation. It is helpless and innocent and can not defend itself. The unborn have no government to protect them from the "choice" of the mother. Even the child's father can not protect the unborn's life.

But, biblically and traditionally, God did not condemn war and, in fact, there are times when war is necessary. But God did condemn murder, and abortion is murder of the most innocent and vulnerable in society.

God bless.

[BearArms]

Part of the problem is that there is no consensus in society as to what constitutes a "person." Certainly, pro-lifers would argue that genetic identity is all that matters to qualify a life as a person. Others would say, however, that self-awareness is the critical factor that separates man from animal. Therefore, abortion would not constitute murder in their eyes. Without more information, it is impossible to achieve consensus on the problem.

To be pro-choice, one only has to believe that another reasonable person could come to the honest conclusion, after careful thought, that abortion is less than murder. It's also true that even people who do consider abortion to be murder consider it justified in certain cases (for example, pro-lifers who support exceptions for rape, incest, etc.)

If you and other Catholics believe that abortion is murder, that is one thing. But to support turning those who sincerely disagree with you into felons is quite another matter altogether. Some Catholics might choose to follow the teachings of their church in these matters, but might also realize how severe and punitive a pro-life solution to the problem would be for those whose philosophical views are not informed by religion or other systems of belief that claim to possess truth.

But however you may want to rationalize it, if you support the war in Iraq, you are supporting actions that are taking, and will take, innocent human lives. And no one disagrees that these lives are indeed persons. The pope, who is believed by Catholics to be the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, strongly opposes this war. Perhaps those Catholics who oppose him on this particular matter should try to understand why other Catholics might oppose him on other difficult matters including abortion.