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Libertarians Join Liberals in Challenging Sodomy Law
NYTimes ^ | March 19, 2003 | LINDA GREENHOUSE

Posted on 03/19/2003 12:48:02 AM PST by RJCogburn

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To: freeeee
The funny thing is that it is HV's standard of morality (which recognizes no right other than the right to life, in the strict sense of biological existence) which favors the Gunga Diner -- since the marginal increase in the food supply would raise the level of security against starvation from 99.99999998% to 99.99999999%, it should not only be opened, but should be kept open by the government if necessary, according to HV's moral code.
121 posted on 03/19/2003 10:11:42 AM PST by steve-b
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To: HumanaeVitae
Whoa, hey! Where'd all the libertarians go? They were so vocal before...
122 posted on 03/19/2003 10:13:18 AM PST by HumanaeVitae
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To: HumanaeVitae
How could anyone shut me down?

You haven't had a customer since you opened. Your mortgage is Past Due. The nice sheriff will escort you off the property.

123 posted on 03/19/2003 10:13:24 AM PST by steve-b
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To: HumanaeVitae
Since you like eating analogies, consider this:

Americans of Latino descent have higher rates of diabetes and obesity than Americans of Northern European descent.

Therefore, a law against the behavior of buying junk food could be enacted, making illegal for Hispanics to buy junk food.

Will the Supreme Court uphold such law?

124 posted on 03/19/2003 10:13:37 AM PST by george wythe
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To: HumanaeVitae
Maybe you'd hear them if you'd quit talking to yourself, duh.
125 posted on 03/19/2003 10:14:00 AM PST by steve-b
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To: HumanaeVitae
That's funny, you know.

I'd rather have homosexuals in jail than out on the streets molesting young children.

That's rather funny, you know.

I haven't heard of any molestations on the street. In fact, over the past year or so, I've heard most reports of molestation indicating that they happen for more often elsewhere.

126 posted on 03/19/2003 10:14:26 AM PST by Pahuanui (When a foolish man hears about the Tao, he laughs out loud.)
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To: Roscoe
Looks fine on mine. You look great with your rag on your head.
127 posted on 03/19/2003 10:15:24 AM PST by Protagoras
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Comment #128 Removed by Moderator

To: HumanaeVitae
I'd rather have homosexuals in jail than out on the streets molesting young children.

No convicted child molester should ever be let out of prison, straight or homo.

129 posted on 03/19/2003 10:16:45 AM PST by Liberal Classic (Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est.)
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To: steve-b
You haven't had a customer since you opened.

How about booking the LP National Covention? That would bring in hundreds of dollars.

130 posted on 03/19/2003 10:16:53 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: Protagoras
Have fun looking at your cache.
131 posted on 03/19/2003 10:18:06 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: HumanaeVitae
what if it is successful?

It won't be, bet the farm. But I'll humor you for the sake of discussion and pretend it succeeds.

Is that morally wrong?

It would be repugnant, but none of my business because you wouldn't be violating the rights of others. I wouldn't associate with you either, because I would find you of low character. I would find it personally morally wrong, but it is not my place to enforce my morals with force, but you probably already knew that. I suspect that's why you asked the question, to hear one of us say it. So there you have it.

My restaurant is on my property, and I'm not hurting anyone, right? How could anyone shut me down?

By not eating there. You'll go out of business with a quickness. I'd bet you wouldn't have a single customer, ever. And government wouldn't need to do a thing to close you down. Imagine that, something succeeding or failing on its own merits.

132 posted on 03/19/2003 10:19:06 AM PST by freeeee
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To: Aquinasfan
If racist speech is evil, then why would it be intrinsically immoral to criminalize it?

Because the actions necessary to criminalize it are more evil. It would make people afraid to say anything potentially controversial for fear of being thrown in prison. A decent portion of the posts on FR regarding our favorite religion of peace would qualify as racism in the minds of some.

133 posted on 03/19/2003 10:19:15 AM PST by ThinkDifferent (tick...tick...tick...)
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Comment #134 Removed by Moderator

To: Aquinasfan
If racist speech is evil, then why would it be intrinsically immoral to criminalize it?

Because the actions necessary to criminalize it are more evil. It would make people afraid to say anything potentially controversial for fear of being thrown in prison. A decent portion of the posts on FR regarding our favorite religion of peace would qualify as racism in the minds of some.

135 posted on 03/19/2003 10:20:42 AM PST by ThinkDifferent (tick...tick...tick...)
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To: realpatriot71
Can we use this argument to extend to smoking?

Yes, inasmuch as smoking is a voluntary act.

Should smoking be illegal by this criteria?

No, because smoking, unlike homosexuality, is not intrinsically evil since, when used in small quantities, it doesn't represent a danger to one's health. Smoking, to the extent that it represents a clear danger to a specific individual's health, however, would be intrinsically evil.

Therefore, a tax on cigarettes which works to discourage chain-smoking is prudent. Unfortunately, such a tax would penalize the occasional user, but not significantly. Additionally, smoking is not essential to one's health. Such a tax then promotes the common good, more so than no tax would.

136 posted on 03/19/2003 10:21:27 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Emmylou
It's not made of straw, my dear.

Answer the question...would you allow this or not?

The point...there are certain types of behaviors that do not explicitly hurt people, but that lower public morality that can and should be banned.

My further point: there is no "right" to gay sex. The SCOTUS should not "declare one". If the democratic will of the people of Texas is the outlawing of gay sex, then fine. If not, then fine. I'd be out there campaigning to keep the law, but if the referendum calling for its repeal passed, I'd have nothing to say.

137 posted on 03/19/2003 10:21:27 AM PST by HumanaeVitae
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To: HumanaeVitae
How about it libertarians? Voluntarily contracted cannibalism ok with you guys?

As a matter of principle, yes. However, your scenario is like asking: if pigs could fly would you ride one - not going to happen.

138 posted on 03/19/2003 10:22:16 AM PST by realpatriot71 (legalize freedom!)
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To: ThinkDifferent
A decent portion of the posts on FR regarding our favorite religion of peace would qualify as racism in the minds of some.

Frankly, quite a few FR posts on the subject of Arabs are racist by any reasonable definition of that word.

However, it would indeed be evil for anyone (except JimRob and his delegated agents) to remove them or sanction their authors.

139 posted on 03/19/2003 10:23:17 AM PST by steve-b
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To: Aquinasfan
No, because smoking, unlike homosexuality, is not intrinsically evil since, when used in small quantities, it doesn't represent a danger to one's health. Smoking, to the extent that it represents a clear danger to a specific individual's health, however, would be intrinsically evil.

Right. Society, through the democratic process, evaluates behaviors and then decides if they advance the public good. Smoking is a nuisance, but banning it is worse so you tolerate it on a prudential basis. You could say that homosexuality is bad for society, but curtailing it is worse, so leave it alone. I would disagree. We put it to a vote. One side wins. Fair enough.

But don't tell me you have a "right" to smoke or a "right" to gay sex. You don't.

140 posted on 03/19/2003 10:24:03 AM PST by HumanaeVitae
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