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Pope says Iraq war threatens humanity
Reuters | 3/22/03

Posted on 03/22/2003 3:37:20 AM PST by kattracks

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To: calljack
30 years of rape torture and murder.. I take it your talking about in Iraq?

Or are you talking about the 30 years of legal murder here in America?

If Saddam has been raping, torturing and murdering in Iraq for 30 years, why didn't we do something about it say, 25 years ago? Or 20? How about 12 years ago?

Maybe we should give him Most Favored Nation status like we do to some of those other countries that have been raping torturing and killing for 30 years and everything will be OK.

141 posted on 03/22/2003 7:14:20 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Conservative til I die
"President Bush's country continues to allow abortion, threatening unborn children in this country. Hey, Bush, when you get your house in order, you can tell the rest of the world how to function."

Bush is not the person to make that decision. We live in a representative democracy. Besides, President Bush represents a country. The Pope speaks for a religion and can make prnouncements with far less consideration.

Wanna try again?

142 posted on 03/22/2003 9:53:51 PM PST by lawdude
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To: Conservative til I die
"Bummer. Why not just become a Unitarian, that's about as far from orthodox Christianity as Deism. I'm sorry you turned to heresy."

For the record, I very much believe in a Supreme Being. I do not go to nor wish to belong to ANY Church, given my experience. And please, don't feel "sorry" for me.

143 posted on 03/23/2003 4:03:07 AM PST by Solamente
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To: Conservative til I die
No, you refuse to open your eyes. The Doctor's of the Church taught about this very topic - what happens if the Pope becomes a heretic? The conclusion is that since a heretic is ipso facto removed from the Church, they also ipso facto lose all offices in the Church. They do not need to be judged by a tribunal.

"Therefore, the true opinion is the fifth, according to which the Pope who is manifestly a heretic ceases by himself to be Pope and head, in the same way as he ceases to be a Christian and a member of the body of the Church; and for this reason he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the opinion of all the ancient Fathers, who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction, and outstandingly that of St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2) who speaks as follows of Novatian, who was Pope [i.e. antipope] in the schism which occurred during the pontificate of St. Cornelius: 'He would not be able to retain the episcopate [i.e. of Rome], and, if he was made bishop before, he separated himself from the body of those who were, like him, bishops, and from the unity of the Church.'" (St. Robert Bellarimne, Doctor of the Church, On the Roman Pontiff, Book 2, Chapter 30)

With all the utter nonesense that comes out of the Vatican today on everything from Altar Girls (a condemned heresy from around AD 400, by the way), to the salvation of Jews and Protestants without joining the Catholic Church, onwards and onwards ever new and strange teachings!

"Canon 10. If anyone should say that the married state should be preferred to the state of virginity or celibacy and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity or celibate than to be united in matrimony, let him be anathema. (cf. Matthew 19:11; 1 Corinthians 7:25; 38-40)" (Denzinger 980 - Council of Trent, Session 24, Canon 10)

Now John Paul II on the same topic:

(...) "And now, as in previous weeks, we are going to continue our reflections upon the theme of continence for the Kingdom of Heaven. IN THE WORDS OF CHRIST WE DO NOT FIND A SUPERIOR EVALUATION OF VIRGINITY OR CELIBACY WITH RESPECT TO MATRIMONY. Continence and matrimony are two basic situations, two 'states' of life, which differ from one another and complement one another within the Christian community. It is precisely this which in its unity and in all of its members has an eschatological orientation and in this distinct tendency is realised for the Kingdom of Heaven. (Pope John Paul II - Allocution to Spanish Delegations in St. Peter's Square (14th April 1982) (Delivered in Spanish).)

Whoops! An obvious heresy is stated as truth! Lets look at another example.

It [the Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and preaches that "all those who are outside the Catholic church, not only pagans" (Fulgentius, De Fide, 38) but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the christian warfare produce eternal rewards; "and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic church." (Fulgentius, De Fide, 39) - (Council of Florance, Session 11, Bull "Cantate Domino", 2/4/1442)

Now compare John Paul II on the same topic in his Encyclical Ut Unum Sint (25 May, 1995):

Continuing spiritual ecumenism and bearing witness to holiness

83. I have mentioned the will of the Father and the spiritual space in which each community hears the call to overcome the obstacles to unity. All Christian Communities know that, thanks to the power given by the Spirit, obeying that will and overcoming those obstacles are not beyond their reach. All of them in fact have martyrs for the Christian faith.[137] Despite the tragedy of our divisions, these brothers and sisters have preserved an attachment to Christ and to the Father so radical and absolute as to lead even to the shedding of blood. But is not this same attachment at the heart of what I have called a "dialogue of conversion"? Is it not precisely this dialogue which clearly shows the need for an ever more profound experience of the truth if full communion is to be attained?

84. In a theocentric vision, we Christians already have a common "Martyrology". This also includes the martyrs of our own century, more numerous than one might think, and it shows how, at a profound level, God preserves communion among the baptized in the supreme demand of faith, manifested in the sacrifice of life itself.[138] The fact that one can die for the faith shows that other demands of the faith can also be met. I have already remarked, and with deep joy, how an imperfect but real communion is preserved and is growing at many levels of ecclesial life. I now add that this communion is already perfect in what we all consider the highest point of the life of grace, "martyria" unto death, the truest communion possible with Christ who shed his Blood, and by that sacrifice brings near those who once were far off (cf. Eph 2:13).

While for all Christian communities the martyrs are the proof of the power of grace, they are not the only ones to bear witness to that power. Albeit in an invisible way, the communion between our Communities, even if still incomplete, is truly and solidly grounded in the full communion of the Saints-those who, at the end of a life faithful to grace, are in communion with Christ in glory. These "Saints" come from all the Churches and Ecclesial Communities which gave them entrance into the communion of salvation.

137. Cf. SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL, Decree on Ecumenism "Unitatis Redintegratio", 4; PAUL VI, Homily for the Canonization of the Ugandan Martyrs (18 October 1964): "AAS" 56 (1964), 906.

138. Cf. JOHN PAUL II, Apostolic Letter "Tertio Millennio Adveniente" (10 November 1994), 37: "AAS" 87 (1995), 29-30.

Whoops! Utter heresy!

"Finally, He brought His revelation to completion when He accomplished on the Cross the work of redemption by which He achieved salvation and true freedom for men." (Declaration on Religious Liberty Dignitatis Humanae, paragraph 11)

This contradicts the traditional and definite Catholic teaching that many truths proposed by the Church as Divinely revealed were not revealed by Our Lord until after His Resurrection. For instance, the Council of Trent (Session 6, chapter 14) taught that "Jesus Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance when He said, "Receive the Holy Ghost; whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain they are retained." These words were pronounced by Our Lord (John 20:23) on the evening of Easter Sunday, more than two full days after His Crucifixion. And of course Catholic tradition contains not the slightest reason to believe that Our Lord had revealed before the Crucifixion His plan to institute the sacrament; and to claim that He did so would therefore be to invent a new dogma never before heard of in the Church. And even then the objection remains that the answers to such questions as exactly who were the ministers of the sacrament could not have been revealed before the Passion, since the apostasy of Judas was kept secret by Our Lord until it took place.

The list of dogmas revealed by Our Lord after His Crucifixion includes the form of the sacrament of Baptism, the extension of the preaching mandate of the Apostles to the entire world, the abolition of the patriarchal religions as means of salvation, the coming into force of the promised primacy and infallibility of St. Peter, the elevation to the Apostolic dignity of St. Paul, and of course Our Lord's own Resurrection. This last He had already prophesied long before, of course; but it is as a historic event that we must believe it today, and its historical fulfilment was not revealed until the morning of Easter Sunday when it took place and was announced by the angels to the holy women.

So the doctrine of Vatican II on this topic denies the Divine revelation of a large part of the Catholic Faith and the Catholic sacramental system, relegating to the status of an unrevealed inessential the very linchpin of Christianity concerning which St. Paul wrote "If Christ be not risen again, your faith is in vain" (1 Corinthians 15:17). But of course if Our Lord did not reveal his choice of St. Paul as an Apostle (an event which probably happened more than a full year after the Crucifixion), it is not surprising that the Conciliar Sect takes no notice of his doctrine!

Finally we note that, in condemning the doctrine of those who hold that new revelations have been added to the deposit of the Faith since the Apostolic era, the Church has been accustomed to teach that the cut-off point after which no further revelation was made was the death of the last Apostle (cf. Denzinger 2021). Evidently the Church would not have chosen such a late date as the closing point of Revelation if it had already closed much earlier, to wit at the time of the Crucifixion.

Incidentally, we have seen it argued that the Latin word "perficere" which occurs in the original of the above text from Dignitatis Humanae means "to perfect" rather than "to bring to completion". Even if it did, we do not see how it would help the opposing case, for Divine Revelation could hardly be considered perfect without the Resurrection and all the rest - the Apostles certainly thought the Resurrection was worth knowing about, and, casting their minds back to their mental state on Good Friday and Holy Saturday, would doubtless have snorted at the notion that Revelation was perfect without it. But anyhow, "perficere" does not normally mean "to perfect". Its natural sense is "to complete" or "to bring to completion"; and even when the secondary meaning, "to perfect", is possible, it is always in the sense of perfecting by completion.

Theological censure: HERETICAL.

Want some more examples?

144 posted on 03/23/2003 4:49:51 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: kattracks
The pope does not understand the concept of FREEDOM.
145 posted on 03/23/2003 4:58:59 AM PST by PGalt
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To: Sabertooth
Correct analysis.

As mentioned by another poster, there's also a political angle: JPII does not want to appear to be re-starting the Crusades.

Then there's the distortion of his remarks...by Reuters, of course...

146 posted on 03/23/2003 6:05:35 AM PST by ninenot
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To: Sabertooth
You said a mouthful when you indicate that much of the Pope's activity on this question may be "hidden" from us.

Still the largest G2/Diplomatic corps in the world, at least in terms of productivity/person. USStateDept larger, but...
147 posted on 03/23/2003 6:07:38 AM PST by ninenot
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To: Solamente
For the record, I very much believe in a Supreme Being. I do not go to nor wish to belong to ANY Church, given my experience. And please, don't feel "sorry" for me.

You can be whatever you want to be. bUt your belief that organized religion is not superior, it's just a different viewpoint. You adhere to it. Most of us adhere to the idea that organized religion is not evil or wrong just because it's organized.

But what I will say is that if you're concerned about remaining a Christian, and not just a "believer in a God," then being a Deist is the wrong way to go.

148 posted on 03/23/2003 8:22:10 AM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: lawdude
BUSH appoints Six (6) PRO ABORTION Judges in NJ!!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/794020/posts
______________________________________________________________________
New US Senate President, Bill Frist (R.-Tenn.), a Major Shareholder in Reputed For-Profit Abortion Provider

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/articles/12-23-02/jeffrey.htm

and supports stem-cell research, read last paragraph:

http://frist.senate.gov/testbed/press-item.cfm/hurl/id=183224

and

Senator Frist, R-TN championed confirmation
of pro-abortion Satcher,

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30100

Bush isn't really pro life.

Bush Funds Abortion Overseas
http://www.covenantnews.com/bortvote.htm#link

The Bush Family Secret
http://www.all.org/news/bushad2.pdf
A Catholic Response to Bush's Stem Cell Decision
http://www.all.org/abac/rf001.htm
http://www.all.org/issues/broken.htm
Do We Have A Pro-Life President?
http://www.all.org/celebrate_life/cl0107d.htm
http://www.house.gov/burton/RSC/word/Akin.PDF
http://www.all.org/stopp/rr0210.htm
other
http://www.all.org/stopp/rr0103.htm
http://www.all.org/stopp/rr0205.pdf
http://www.all.org/issues/scanalyz.htm

Bush funds 'Faith-Based Condom Religion'
Bush OK's NY Medicaid Plan For Contraceptives
http://www.all.org/stopp/st021004.htm

Bush Advances Legacy Of Bad Decisions,
Broken Promises And Dead Babies
http://www.all.org/news/020709.htm

Bush's gay-friendly judicial nominees...
Log Cabin Republicans Ease Intolerance
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14141

Planned Parenthood started out as an organization to enhance the eugenics movement and to kill off the minorities.

President Bush and Senate President Frist: Stop the Eugenics Movement and Condom Distributions in School, END TITLE X FUNDING NOW!!

http://blackgenocide.org/planned.html
http://www.blackgenocide.org/negro.html

Stop Planned Parenthood
http://www.all.org/stopp/

http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=planned+parenthood&sp-a=sp0611bd00&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=all&sp-w-control=1&sp-d=custom&sp-date-range=-1&sp-start-month=0&sp-start-day=0&sp-start-year=&sp-end-month=0&sp-end-day=0&sp-end-year=&sp-f=iso-8859-1

Bush Supports anti-family UNESCO
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,791354,00.html
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/9/19/153742.shtml
149 posted on 03/23/2003 10:16:19 PM PST by Coleus (RU-486 Kills Babies)
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To: Coleus
You are a 'one-note-charlie'. In my opinion, since abortion is the law of the land, albeit a bad law, it is way down
the list in importance to the country. It needs to be addressed but it pales in importance to other issues.
By harping on only one issue, you weaken the country. Take a breath and help us take the country back, one step
at a time. Just as we lost it.

150 posted on 03/24/2003 5:56:29 AM PST by lawdude
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To: lawdude
I wonder if Jesus (Bush's greatest Philosopher) thinks that
abortion is "way down the list in importance to the country." and if "it pales in importance to other issues.

And what "law" did the Congress pass and the president sign that made abortion legal?

Just remember reading the Old Testament and see what happened to the Jewish people when they turned away from God, there are dozens of references. To summarize: We lose God's protection when we turn away from him and Kill His children, regardless of what ever "human" laws of the land stand.
151 posted on 03/24/2003 9:36:26 AM PST by Coleus (RU-486 Kills Babies)
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To: Coleus
"And what "law" did the Congress pass and the president sign that made abortion legal? "

With that comment you prove your inability to rationally interpret any issue. You are emotion driven only and therefore are beyond further comment.

Goodbye and live securely in your very tiny, hateful world.
152 posted on 03/24/2003 9:50:09 AM PST by lawdude
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To: kattracks
"Pope John Paul, in his first public comment on the outbreak of hostilities in Iraq, said on Saturday that the war there threatened the whole of humanity, and that weapons could never solve mankind's problems. "

Hey, Pope, yo. Ask any survivor of the Nazi death camps if this is REALLY true!

153 posted on 03/24/2003 9:56:38 AM PST by lawdude
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To: lawdude
Ah? you couldn't answer me correctly. I knew it.

"Hateful"?? and now we resort to name calling and irrational responses, Ok, now I know the source.

I don't live in a hateful world, I live in God's world and when people realize this, it will be a much better place. When you become less emotional we can communicate further on this topic.
154 posted on 03/24/2003 10:24:38 AM PST by Coleus (RU-486 Kills Babies)
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To: Coleus
"Ah? you couldn't answer me correctly. I knew it. "

OK twit. Is this a law school test?

As I would have thought you should know, the Supreme Court ruled in Roe vs. Wade, that a womens right to privacy gives rise to the right to abortion. I do not like it but IT IS THE LAW OF THE LAND. You can't change it, I can't change it, President Bush can't change it.

Now, I realize you are a one-note idiot and the term hateful still applies. Get a life and please, please, do not bother me further, else I shall ask Jim to take measures. You are a pure-D troll.

Get a new issue to misunderstand.
155 posted on 03/24/2003 4:13:19 PM PST by lawdude
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To: lawdude
More name calling, frustrated? or something?

oh, now a squeeler since I challenged you...I think Jim Rob has better things to do than to hear from cry babies. I've been a member of FR for 3 yrs and am not a D, far from it.

You can't change it, I can't change it, President Bush can't change it.>>>>

Learn the law.

Platform of the Republican Party

http://www.rnc.org/GOPInfo/Platform/2000platform4.htm

We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and we endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children.

See, anything can be changed.

Now go cry to daddy, little boy.
156 posted on 03/24/2003 5:18:17 PM PST by Coleus (RU-486 Kills Babies)
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To: lawdude
When are you going to get "your" house in order?

So, you like bashing catholics in your spare time, eh? Nice Hobby.
157 posted on 03/24/2003 5:58:57 PM PST by Coleus (RU-486 Kills Babies)
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