Mel's Jesus not everybody's messiah

Sydney Morning Herald ^ | April 1 2003 | By Chris McGillion

[PaulJ]

...Gibson went so far as to claim, in a March 14 interview with an American Catholic cable network, that "the other world" was "warring" with him ..."

That's not what he said. He said the "other world" was warring, a biblical reference to the war going on between heaven & hell. He did say he thought there might be forces trying to prevent him from making the movie, but we heard this same thing during the making of the Exorcist (as well as several teenage slasher movies) and I don't recall reading anyone making light of those claims.

[KeyWest]

"Look at the fruits," Gibson had said, "dwindling numbers and pedophilia."

There is a pun in there somewhere.

[Notwithstanding]

This "jounalist" tries a little too hard. I am suspect of people who pretend that Vatican II was absolutely evil and that Mass must be in Latin.

BUT - I am even more suspect of a "journalist" who pretends that the Church is in great shape as a result of Vatican II.

Bravo for Gibson's movie. Bravo for Caviezel (devout Catholic actor from "Count of Monte Christo" who is playing Jesus).

[Ff--150]

The moral for Gibson is obvious: if you are going to be a combatant, expect to be shot at from time to time

Battle lines are drawn; put on the whole Armour that you are able to withstand in the evil day.

[TightSqueeze]

I am not sure how the knuckle-head neo-cons are going to handel this crisis in faith, Gibson is one of their saints. They will have to come to grips with Gibson's hair-brained interpretation of the bible that differs from the message they receive locally which claims that G-d an American warrior, could be trouble at the trailer park.

[AD from SpringBay]

...the movie has been directed, co-written, and largely privately financed by Gibson

That says more than the rest of the article. May the story of Jesus be told and retold, forever.

[Iris7]

...(people) are entitled to their opinions but....their views are no more valid than anybody else's.

Ah, yes, the cry of the "modern" moral relativist, "Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one and they all stink." "There is no right or wrong, mearly opinion, which we call 'personal values'". The ancients called a person rejecting the possibility that virtue was possible a "cynic". The refusal to distinguish between right and wrong they called "licentiousness". The Hebrews and Christians knew this to be Sin. As the old saying says, "the more things change the more things stay the same."

[tuckrdout]

It sounds like a very good movie to me. I heard Gibson's interview on Fox about it.

Here is what he said:

"But, when you look at the reasons behind why Christ came, why he was crucified, he died for all mankind and he suffered for all mankind, so that, really, anybody who transgresses has to look at their own part or look at their own culpability.

It's time to sort of get back to a basic message, the message that was given. At this time, the world has gone nuts, I think. Christ spoke of faith, hope, love and forgiveness. And these are things I think we need to be reminded of again. He forgave as he was tortured and killed. And we could do with a little of that behavior."

I am looking forward to seeing it. Then, I will judge it. All this talk is to keep people away. I urge all believers in Jesus Christ to go and support these kinds of movies, and not believe the anti-Christian hype....those who are not Christians are the ones calling it "anti-semetic"; to keep Jews away; and they imply that it promotes Catholic beliefs to keep Protestants away! Don't fall for it..

[MrLeRoy]

attendance levels at Mass now are about what they were a century ago (high attendance levels in the decades before 1960 were the anomaly)

The second clause does not follow from the first; you'd have to study attendance levels over a few centuries to determine what is the norm. And even if high attendance levels in the decades before 1960 were the anomaly, it in no way follows that those high attendance levels were a causeless fluke whose end was also causeless.

[kitkat]

As far as the Tridentine Mass is concerned, we have to take it in the perspective of the '60s.

After WWII, enormous changes occurred in the population of this country. Servicemen returned home, married and had families. The trek to the suburbs began in earnest in order to find housing.

Catholic schools in the suburbs were vastly overcrowded. Where it had been traditional for a Catholic family to send their children to their local parish school, most were now in public school.

Because of this there was not enough instruction on the meaning of the Latin Mass. By the '60s, a vast number of Baby Boomers were fleeing the Church. The English Mass was a godsend. It allowed far more understanding of the ritual.

Actually, it should have happened a generation sooner.

By the way, the real reason the Mass had been said in Latin is simply because Latin is a dead language and not subject to changes in meaning. It would seem to me that as long as the Latin is kept in a vault somewhere and used as a reference to make changes in the English Mass, then the English Mass will always conform to the original meaning of the Mass.

As a Catholic, I can only wish that when we threw out the Gregorian chant, we had adopted some more stirring hymns to replace it. Someone commented that the Catholics got an English Mass and the Protestants got all the good hymns. LOL!

[ClearCase_guy]

Indeed. And the way this is written leaves open to interpretation how they are defining "attendance". Is it number of Catholics attending Mass each week? Is it percentage of Catholics who attend Mass each week? Due to population increases, raw numbers being equivalent over a 100 year period is really a decline.

Also, there is the possibility that Catholicism was heading toward a significant upswing prior to the 1960's. With "attendance" levels being much higher than they had been 60 years before, things were looking good for the Church of St Peter. But something came along to reverse that trend, and send the attendance levels back down to their previous levels. Wonder what?

[MrLeRoy]

Catholic schools in the suburbs were vastly overcrowded. [...] By the '60s, a vast number of Baby Boomers were fleeing the Church.

What is your source for these claims?

[txzman]

Vatican II reasoned that the adoption of Latin as the universal language of the church in the fourth century was merely a concession to the times and that by conducting Mass in the language of the participants they could take a more active part in the ceremony.

Umm, this also conveniently ignores the fact that the Roman Catholic Church burned as "heretics" all those who tried to put the Bible into English for the layman.

Keeping the Bible in Latin meant one had to rely solely on the Church for guidance about your soul. In effect guaranteeing captivity for those wanting to know God.

Just one small example of the Catholic Church's intolerance - in 1516, two couples were burned at the stake in England for daring to teach their children the 10 commandments in English.

See Fox's Book of Martyrs: http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/

[toddst]

....those who are not Christians are the ones calling it "anti-semetic"; to keep Jews away; and they imply that it promotes Catholic beliefs to keep Protestants away!

Exactly right. This film will do well and has the potential to greatly impact people who are searching for a spitirual path.

I suspect the film will sell very well when available on DVD. It will be a classic Christians will want to own and view repeatedly.

[FITZ]

I am looking forward to seeing it.

Me too.

[Judith Anne]

I'll be watching it, purchasing it, and giving it as gifts. I'm so pleased that Mr. Gibson has undertaken this project.

[danneskjold]

bump...

[SoothingDave]

It would seem to me that as long as the Latin is kept in a vault somewhere and used as a reference to make changes in the English Mass, then the English Mass will always conform to the original meaning of the Mass.

Would that this were true. Those who produced the present English-language texts for the Mass did a horribly unfaithful job of translating the Latin.

SD

[Future Snake Eater]

The film has also raised concerns among Jewish groups who fear it will revive the charge that Jews are collectively responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus.

Yeah...how dare Mel Gibson dredge up historical fact! It's just not fair! Hasn't he ever heard of historical revision for the sake of political correctness?