We Want An Islamic State, Say Protesters

The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 4-16-2003 | Sandra Laville

[blam]

We want an Islamic state, say protesters

By Sandra Laville in Nasiriyah
(Filed: 16/04/2003)

As America gathered its chosen leaders for the new Iraq behind barbed wire checkpoints on an airbase in the desert, the seeds of a new democracy were being scattered on the streets of Nasiriyah yesterday.

Chanting "Yes, Yes, Islam, No America, No Saddam", a slogan they never dared to whisper under the old regime, Shia religious leaders led a demonstration of more than 3,000 men to protest against the US-led attempts to build a new government.

Watched by hundreds who did not agree with what they were saying but who celebrated their newly found freedom to say it, the first organised mass demonstration in Iraq could not quite shake off the hangover of 30 years' dictatorship.

Spittle flying as they hammered out their demand for an Islamic state, where women wear the hijab and prayers are held five times a day, aggressive young men manhandled dissenters on to the pavement.

"I love George Bush, I love Tony Blair," was all one elderly man managed to splutter before he was ushered away. "Don't write that down," a young man told reporters. "He is a stupid man, a thief."

Marching through central Nasiriyah before retired general Jay Garner hosted a meeting of more than 80 Iraqi opposition groups at Tallil airbase, the headquarters of the American military in the area, the Shia leaders wanted to show that they represented the majority of their people.

They said they had had no invitation to the Garner gathering and wanted to be heard.

"My son is suffering from everything," said Sabbar Hussein, 45, clutching the four-year-old boy outside the gates of the airbase compound. "There's no food, no electricity, no water, no peace. I wanted to tell them this, but we have been forbidden. I'm very angry we have no representation."

Inside the tent Gen Garner, who is to lead the interim authority, spoke of the historic moment for the new nation.

Eight miles away in Nasiriyah, Sheikh Mahdi Salih, said the Shi'ite council, the Al Hawza in Najaf, had been excluded from the US State Department meeting. "We want Iraq to be pluralist and we want our view recognised.

"I want America to leave Iraq and leave the Gulf region. I don't feel liberated, I want democracy."

As the democracy he demanded was demonstrated on the streets, so was its fragility.

Taleb, a theatre director watching from the pavement, was one who dared to offer a different view. "The people of Iraq do not want Islamic rule. For 35 years we have lived with no freedom, and these religious leaders are not offering us freedom."

Reporters who took down his words were ordered to erase them as Taleb was muscled off the street to shouts from the crowd. Those who marched saw no irony in acknowledging that without the American war they would not have such freedoms.

Notably absent from the chanting masses were the women of Nasiriyah. "There are no women here," said Kazem Alssafi. "Under Islamic law they cannot be here. They should remain in the home."

As the demonstration ended at the bombed-out Ba'ath Party headquarters, Shia students bellowed through a loudspeaker their demands for representation in any government. "It is unreasonable to ignore a majority of more than three quarters of Iraq," they said.

[HHFi]

"Yes, take the jack boot off our necks and replace it with a new jack boot!"

Here's where we find out if the majority in Iraq is indeed intelligent enough to maintain a democracy, or if they are too stupid and backward, as all those egalitarian liberals have been telling us they are.

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[Teacher317]

Good for them. America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Free Iraq can be founded on the principles of Islam. The trick is to avoid those principles that treat citizens unequally (especially women or those of other faiths), that treat citizens as vassals of the state (rather than the masters of the state), that fail to respect the rights that they possess simply as a consequence of their birth, and that place emphasis on one particular denomination of Islam over another. If they can do that, they should be fine, whether it is an Islamic-influenced state or not.

[Argus]

The Iranian and Syrian-allied Hezbollah types are already at work. They need to be dealt with, and no messing around.

[Arkinsaw]

An Iranian puppet show. We need to win the hearts and minds right here and then turn it back on Iran. I think the battle between the US and Iran is going to take place in the minds of these towns in central Iraq.

[dalebert]

I don't think these people even knew why they were demonstrating. Maybe they just believe in mob rule.

[yooper]

Yes, let's replace an Islamanzi government with a different Islamanazi government. What a great idea.

[daviddennis]

All they need is some honest reporting from Iran and Afghanistan to show how bad an Islamic state is in practice.

We should have Iranian dissidents in the news explaining how bad their system is.

At the same time, this demonstration shows that Iraq has gone a long way towards freedom, and that has to be applauded.

On the other hand, if they really did manhandle the opposition, they might have to be arrested for the manhandling.

It sounds like there are plenty of diverse points of view. Let's hear them all, not just the ones with the foreign-supplied megaphones.

D

[caisson71]

They'll have whatever kind of Islamic state WE decide they should have - their choice.

[yooper]

"The trick is to avoid those principles that treat citizens unequally (especially women or those of other faiths), that treat citizens as vassals of the state (rather than the masters of the state), that fail to respect the rights that they possess simply as a consequence of their birth, and that place emphasis on one particular denomination of Islam over another."

Uh, that would leave out the Islamic religion. There isn't a single Islamic government that is practicing your above rules.

[Arkinsaw]

Let's hear them all, not just the ones with the foreign-supplied megaphones.

I think its a fantastic opportunity to knock this Mullah off his perch from the grassroots level since we hold the cards. If we can play them to get people wanting our way and our results rather than his.

If we can out heart and mind this guy, then we have a chance at a successful, free, Shiite population to show the Iranian people.

[observer5]

They want to make it another Islamofashist state.

[American Soldier]

They are worried about getting screwed... just like the majority Pashtuns in Iraq worried about losing the power that went with their numbers, the Shiites understandably worry that they won't be the dominant influence in Iraq.

Personally, I think in a truly democratic Iraq, the Shiites must naturally be the dominant power - they are 70% of the population! Just because they are dominant doesn't mean that it has to be bad for the Sunnis, anymore than America being a Protestant country makes things bad for Catholics.

The Iraqi people need to be reassured that while we will help to make sure Sunnis aren't victims of a backlash (which they probably deserve to be, IMHO, but I digress) we will not seek to equalize the power between the two. In the new Iraq, Sunnis will hold power only in proportion to their numbers, meaning they will never rule again. Thus I am more worried about Sunnis going crazy on us than I am about the Shiites.

[RLK]

Chanting "Yes, Yes, Islam, No America, No Saddam"

-----------------------

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Today they are chanting. In a month or two they will be killing to get their way. Whether they kill their own or kill us makes no difference to them.

[SauronOfMordor]

I don't think these people even knew why they were demonstrating. Maybe they just believe in mob rule.

An organized mob is very effective at intimidating a larger, disorganized, unarmed population. Armed individuals are harder for a mob to intimidate (a reason for the 2nd Amendment). The best solution is for those who do not want to be ruled by mullahs to organize themselves and be prepared to defend their new freedoms

[joesnuffy]

American was founded under the Holy Spirit not under Christian Principles alone..

Its the internal man who has the law written in his heart who is fit to live under a democracy
and needs no external locus of control to make right decsions and live rightly

Those who cannot control their impulses or who belive that man cannot control himself and must be under external control (Sharia Law) cannot appreciate the freedom man has under democracy...and the responsibility..

IMO true islam, the immans, the religious police, the oppression of freedom, is not fit for democracy..

Islam and democracy are not a good match imo

Christianity allows for others opinons and is willing to co exist with other idelogy in hopes that as an example others will want to become Christians

We allow Islam to build thousands of mosques and islamic centers in our country..

In an Islamic run state the people will not be free to worship God as they will....
The immans and mullahs will see to that...

Iraq cannot become an Islamic state and remain free...

[Teacher317]

Uh, that would leave out the Islamic religion.

Not entirely. The myth of the "moderate Muslim" isn't really a myth. There are some good people out there.

There isn't a single Islamic government that is practicing your above rules.

Very true, but they are virtually all oligarchies, monarchies, theocracies or dictatorships. Again, if the foundation is laid upon respect for the rights of the individual, the subservience of government to the citizenry, and the separation of religious doctrinal methodology from the secular rule of law, they are already far better off than most of Socialist Europe.

(I might run upstairs and grab my copy of the Koran, and see if the more just passages can't be reconciled with a Republican form of governance, if I'm feeling spry.)

On a quick final note, there aren't any Western governments practicing by the Constitution's rules either, but we're still doing okay! ;^)

[Teacher317]

They certainly need a major reminder of how precious life is, after a generation has been watching all their brethren acting in a brutal and death-affirming fashion, while being tortured into believing that their lives are less important that the whims of the mullahs, Saddam's goons, or making a loud political statement.

[killermosquito]

Yes, Afghanistan was a great success. Who wouldn't want to repeat it? Next to liberalism, Islam is the greatest producer of poverty in the world.